News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Knitters got knotted in a purity spiral (2020) by escapedmoose on Monday May 09, 2022 @09:34PM (#31322328)
“It’s wrong to force people into childbirth against their will” holds up well as a coherent, objective moral value statement. I’m a bit baffled that you supposedly can’t see the morality argument for respecting bodily autonomy.

On the other side, many of the politicians currently running for office as Republicans in my state have been dragged so deep into the anti-abortion purity spiral that they’re publicly insisting women should die rather than terminate a non-viable and life-threatening pregnancy.

Re:Knitters got knotted in a purity spiral (2020) by TimTheTinker on Tuesday May 10, 2022 @12:40AM (#31323510)
> “It’s wrong to force people into childbirth against their will” holds up well as a coherent, objective moral value statement.

Those who want to get abortions aren't being forced into childbirth against their will, unless there was rape involved.

Pro-abortion activists seem to think they only have (or ought to have) a choice after they're already pregnant. The real choice was months earlier.

Re:Knitters got knotted in a purity spiral (2020) by random-human on Tuesday May 10, 2022 @01:22AM (#31323745)
The no exceptions clauses includes no exceptions for either rape or incest.

> The real choice was months earlier.

That is a large blanket assumption. Condom breakage, having a specific gene which makes female birth control very unreliable [1], partner reproductive coercion [2]. Among others. Given enough time, moral purity spirals into attacking then punishing the people wronged or having found themselves in an unfortunate situation. In this particular case, condom breakage, an unfortunate gene one didn't know they had, finding out too late you trusted the wrong partner [sneaky birth control sabotage] etc.

[1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6448146/

[2] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3282154/

Re:Knitters got knotted in a purity spiral (2020) by TimTheTinker on Tuesday May 10, 2022 @02:06AM (#31323979)
By modern values, yes those are reasons to allow abortions.

But modern values devalue life in part because they also devalue sex. They treat sex casually, as though it isn't the outward symbol and seal of a lifelong commitment and promise, and the very means by which more human life is created.

There would be no felt need for abortion to exist if sex and human life were both valued as they ought to be - as sacred, as gifts with a particular design not our own, as capable of great glory when used rightly -- and great devastation when used wrongly.

Consider how delicately and carefully we handle matters when the stakes are high - when there's the possibility of gaining or losing much based on our decisions. Sex and marriage and family ought to be held in high regard, because the stakes are so high. They can end so well -- or incredibly badly when handled outside their designed operating parameters.

Abortion to me represents the human collateral and fallout from having abandoned a right view of sex and marriage and family. So much death. Ideas have consequences, indeed.

As a side note, a high view of sex and life also increases the travesty that rape is. It's so much worse, morally speaking, than liberals can say it is given their moral framework.

Re:Knitters got knotted in a purity spiral (2020) by amanaplanacanal on Tuesday May 10, 2022 @08:06AM (#31326066)
> the outward symbol and seal of a lifelong commitment and promise

Good god no. That may be fine for you as a personal religious view, but as a pluralistic society I hope we never go there again.

Re:Knitters got knotted in a purity spiral (2020) by Hyolobrika on Tuesday May 10, 2022 @04:50PM (#31332527)
Why is that the thing you disagree with?
Re:Knitters got knotted in a purity spiral (2020) by escapedmoose on Tuesday May 10, 2022 @09:14AM (#31326706)
We’re certainly not going to agree on this heightened morality you’ve applied to sex. But ignoring that for a minute, I’m sure you’re aware that complications are not exactly rare during pregnancy. The majority of women who undergo abortions are already mothers. You can handle the high stakes carefully, you can want the pregnancy, and still wind up in need of an abortion. To say that without “liberal attitudes” there would be “no need for abortions” is terribly naive.
Re:Knitters got knotted in a purity spiral (2020) by TimTheTinker on Tuesday May 10, 2022 @05:07PM (#31332736)
> You can handle the high stakes carefully, you can want the pregnancy, and still wind up in need of an abortion.

I hear this a lot, and it's currently a popular "wedge scenario" pro-abortion advocates are using to try to convince people that abortion shouldn't be outlawed.

But I think it's largely a red herring. Either the baby is still alive, or it's not. A high view of human life rules out all intentional taking of life, including assisted suicide. It would also rule out these types of abortions, as they are taking life at a time when life would not end naturally.

Valuing human life highly means accepting that while some people are different, we are all equally valuable -- even those who have birth defects or who die as an infant. And people with Down's syndrome are as equally valuable as those who don't.

Re:Knitters got knotted in a purity spiral (2020) by escapedmoose on Tuesday May 10, 2022 @05:38PM (#31333065)
Who said anything about Down’s syndrome? 1 in 10 clinically recognized pregnancies results in miscarriage (to say nothing of the pregnancies that end in miscarriage before they’re detected). When a wanted pregnancy naturally terminates or is deemed non-viable, doctors must often use abortion to extract the fetus in order to prevent further complications for the mother.

If you’re concerned about people terminating fertilized cells as a means for genetic selection, you should rather turn your attention to IVF.

Re:Knitters got knotted in a purity spiral (2020) by TimTheTinker on Tuesday May 10, 2022 @08:15PM (#31334305)
> doctors must often use abortion to extract the fetus

Which is fine if the baby is dead or there's a complication in which the mother's life is in immediate danger.

> you should rather turn your attention to IVF.

Agreed, that is a serious ethical issue, and yes it's morally equivalent to abortion. However, I'm afraid there aren't enough people who agree with my stance to make a difference (maybe I'm wrong?)

Re:Knitters got knotted in a purity spiral (2020) by escapedmoose on Wednesday May 11, 2022 @12:18PM (#31342059)
> Which is fine if the baby is dead or there's a complication in which the mother's life is in immediate danger.

As stated in my first comment, the politicians currently running for office in my area do not agree with your viewpoint, as they have insisted that they will ban abortion even in the case of fetal death or to save the life of the mother. This, imo, is the anti-abortion purity spiral.

Re:Knitters got knotted in a purity spiral (2020) by User23 on Monday May 09, 2022 @10:48PM (#31322851)
> “It’s wrong to force people into childbirth against their will” holds up well as a coherent, objective moral value statement.

Right. This is why rape is illegal.

Re:Knitters got knotted in a purity spiral (2020) by escapedmoose on Tuesday May 10, 2022 @01:01PM (#31329461)
And yet it still happens, and it continues to be one of many reasons why someone might need an abortion. Notably, the politicians I mentioned in my original reply all have professed their intent to force women to give birth in cases of rape.
Re:Knitters got knotted in a purity spiral (2020) by User23 on Tuesday May 10, 2022 @02:50PM (#31330988)
It's wrong to put an innocent human being to death. One or both of that innocent person's parents being a criminal is morally irrelevant. Civilized societies don't hold children guilty for parental acts. Put in simple terms: two wrongs don't make a right.

Nobody needs to intentionally kill an innocent human being, ever. Full stop. Bear in mind that unintentionally killing an innocent human being can be morally acceptable, such as in the case of a medical intervention to save the mother's life. The intent is to save the mother, and if the necessary treatment unfortunately ends the innocent baby's life that is a tragedy, but not immoral. One might say the outcome is the same, but in ethics intent is very important.

Re:Knitters got knotted in a purity spiral (2020) by escapedmoose on Tuesday May 10, 2022 @05:15PM (#31332830)
It’s also wrong to force a person to undergo a medical procedure against their will. Civilized societies don’t coerce living people (or even cadavers for that matter) to give up their body parts to save the life of another.

Edit: And returning to my original point from the earlier comment, the anti-abortion purity spiral has led these politicians to vow to outlaw abortion even to save the life of the mother. They apparently don’t agree with your evaluation of intent in the eyes of the law.

Re:Knitters got knotted in a purity spiral (2020) by User23 on Tuesday May 10, 2022 @06:19PM (#31333412)
> It’s also wrong to force a person to undergo a medical procedure against their will.

I suppose then that you oppose vaccine mandates?

> Civilized societies don’t coerce living people (or even cadavers for that matter) to give up their body parts to save the life of another.

It's fortunate that childbirth typically leaves the mother with all of her body parts.

> the anti-abortion purity spiral has led these politicians to vow to outlaw abortion even to save the life of the mother. They apparently don’t agree with your evaluation of intent in the eyes of the law.

By definition an abortion is an intentional killing. The killing of the child isn't an unfortunate side effect, it's the primary purpose of the procedure.

How does intentionally killing the innocent child in itself save the life of the mother? A medical procedure to save the life of the mother isn't an abortion. For example an ectopic pregnancy will kill the mother if not treated and all effective treatments unfortunately kill the child. That doesn't make it an abortion.

Furthermore, medical technology has come a long way. It's often an option to induce a premature delivery rather than just kill an innocent human being. And the odds are better than they've ever been that the baby will even survive and be healthy.

Re:Knitters got knotted in a purity spiral (2020) by escapedmoose on Tuesday May 10, 2022 @07:11PM (#31333841)
> I suppose then that you oppose vaccine mandates?

Yes, it is wrong to force someone to undergo a medical procedure against their will.

> It's fortunate that childbirth typically leaves the mother with all of her body parts.

This is, simply, factually incorrect.

> By definition an abortion is an intentional killing. The killing of the child isn't an unfortunate side effect, it's the primary purpose of the procedure.

Also factually incorrect.

> A medical procedure to save the life of the mother isn't an abortion.

Dude, it takes a 3-second Google search to determine that this is false

Re:Knitters got knotted in a purity spiral (2020) by User23 on Tuesday May 10, 2022 @08:36PM (#31334486)
> This is, simply, factually incorrect

I know many mothers and not one is missing any body parts as a direct result of childbirth.

> Also factually incorrect.

You’ll have to be more specific if you don’t want this to parse as nonsense.

> Dude, it takes a 3-second Google search to determine that this is false

I don’t consider SEO garbage an authority on anything.

Re:Knitters got knotted in a purity spiral (2020) by escapedmoose on Wednesday May 11, 2022 @12:22PM (#31342127)
> I know many mothers and not one is missing any body parts as a direct result of childbirth.

Blood and uterine tissue are not body parts?

> I don’t consider SEO garbage an authority on anything.

The websites for the NIH, CDC, and WHO can be found on Google.

Re:Knitters got knotted in a purity spiral (2020) by User23 on Wednesday May 11, 2022 @07:32PM (#31347359)
> Blood and uterine tissue are not body parts?

Not in any accepted usage of the term. With your tortured definition a woman is maimed every time she has a period. Please at least try to be serious. We’re talking about killing human beings, not fooling about what the best editor is.

Re:Knitters got knotted in a purity spiral (2020) by escapedmoose on Thursday May 12, 2022 @01:13PM (#31356938)
I would not wish to live in a country where the government can force people to give blood and tissue against their will. No matter the reason.
Re:Knitters got knotted in a purity spiral (2020) by escapedmoose on Thursday May 12, 2022 @06:14PM (#31360752)
Another thought: Are you seriously equating pregnancy to a monthly period? Surely you see the difference between these two things.
Re:Knitters got knotted in a purity spiral (2020) by random-human on Thursday May 12, 2022 @03:21AM (#31350322)
>> A medical procedure to save the life of the mother isn't an abortion.

See Ectopic Pregnancy https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/diseases/9687-ectopic-...

>> I know many mothers and not one is missing any body parts as a direct result of childbirth.

That is a really small sample to decide that it is okay for the government to interfere into the private medical decisions between it's citizens and their doctor.

>> You’ll have to be more specific if you don’t want this to parse as nonsense.

To accept this kind of government overreach without understanding the consequences to independently living breathing humans is unfortunate for the families and lives it will take and harm. The risk that pregnancy carries, especially in older and youngest females and those with pre-existing conditions are risk that the United States of America, of all places, should not be forcing on it's citizens. This country was once a symbol of liberty and freedom and has been losing it's way for a minute now - as most things do periodically. This time it will have long term consequences for families and communities of those not affluent enough to travel for or afford proper medical care, for which-ever choice the patient and their doctor decide is best.

- Severe maternal morbidity [1] - "unexpected outcomes of labor and delivery that result in significant short- or long-term consequences to a woman's health.”

- High-risk pregnancy [2] - "About 50,000 people in the U.S. experience severe pregnancy complications each year."

- Maternal Mortally [3][4]

---

[1] https://www.cdc.gov/reproductivehealth/maternalinfanthealth/...

[2]https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/diseases/22190-high-ri...

[3]https://www.who.int/news-room/fact-sheets/detail/maternal-mo...

[4] https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/hestat/maternal-mortality/2020... - USA version