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Re:Ask HN: Getting back into the working world with a negati... by edw519 on Wednesday October 19, 2011 @10:53AM (#3130389)
Thanks for posting this. It takes a lot of balls (even with a throwaway account) to post something like this and, hopefully, only good will come out of it. If this thread goes like these kinds of threads usually go on Hacker News, I have no doubt you will have helped quite a few others with this. And hopefully, you will get help too. But that won't be easy. Here's why...

When I read your headline on the front page, the first thing I thought was, "OK, someone to help and encourage. Good." After I read your comment, I didn't feel quite the same way.

I normally try to be upbeat and positive, but in your case, it won't sound that way. I'm going to give it to you straight and I hope that you don't get offended or upset. You need feedback from my point of view.

It's perfectly normal for someone to be weak technically or with other people. It's perfectly normal for someone to struggle with work habits, project management, or personal issues. It's also perfectly normal for excellent people to have been fired. Many of us have been on both sides of these issues.

And these are the kinds of things that are easily managed and fixed.

Your issues, unfortunately, run deeper. Conflicts with bosses? OK, we've all been there. Not getting along? That happens, too. A negative assessment of your boss? Whoa. That would piss me off, too. Why didn't you just talk to him? Refusing to work on a project? WTF? That's your fucking job!

These are the kinds of things that are not easily managed and fixed. I don't know why anyone would take a chance on someone with this kind of track performance. I know that I wouldn't. I'd much rather hire a weak performer with good attitude and potential than a strong performer with interpersonal issues you describe. It's just not worth the trouble.

You most telling remark, however, was:

Another obstacle is that I'm an introvert loner and hence just the opposite of the "communicative teamplayer" companies seem to be looking for.

As one introvert loner to another, I can confidently tell you that this is just an excuse. Almost all of us are introvert loners and almost all employers want "communicative teamplayers". And most of us just find a way to make it work.

I bet I've been in situations like yours (and worse) far more times than you and I bet many others here have too. I've been abused more ways than I care to remember. I've done the work of 5 people and been passed up for promotion. I've worked overtime for years and got no credit. I've been yelled at, cussed at, and many times, generally treated like shit. But I've learned how to put up with it until it's no longer time to put up with it. It all depends where you draw the line.

I've never had words with a boss or customer. I've never emailed, talked about someone else, or filled out any form about them without talking to them first. And most of all, I've never refused work. That's our reason for being there in the first place.

Any ideas on how to get back into the working world with such a track record?

I may sound negative, but believe me, I really want to help. So here are a few thoughts:

1. The root cause of your negative experiences is probably still there. You need to identify that cause, understand your role, and fix it. Get help with that if you think you need it. The good news: you know there's a problem and you're already talking about it. You may be 90% of the way there.

2. Always tell the truth.

3. Don't be afraid to admit that you may have been wrong.

4. Be prepared to describe your experiences (truthfully always!) and what steps you have already taken to grow because of them.

5. Don't volunteer (in writing or in person) anything that you don't have to that can potentially hurt you.

6. Never give references until after you have a job offer (contingent upon those references).

7. Find a way to have a positive attitude and make it show.

8. Understand that there are assholes everywhere and you will surely encounter many more. You can't control them. But you must control yourself. Don't let them fuck you up any more.

I hope I haven't been too tough, but I think you needed to hear this. I wish you the best and look forward to hearing about you getting up on your feet again. If you want to refute anything I have said or need any follow-up feedback, please contact me off-line. Best wishes!

Re:Ask HN: Getting back into the working world with a negati... by 0x12 on Wednesday October 19, 2011 @11:02AM (#3130430)
But he did post here and he asked for input. So even if none of us would likely give the man/woman a chance based on their admitted attitude (and that's not what is being asked) the input is what matters.

And input like yours is exactly what might make the difference when he or she interacts with potential employers next time.

As a non-team player that manages to successfully fake it (within limits) I think that even that can be turned into an asset.

Refusing work that you are paid to do for is a firing offense all over the world. But circumstances do matter and since they're not provided I'm going to at least reserve judgment on whether or not there were any mitigating circumstances. For the record, I once refused to do a job that was technically within my abilities and job description. The only reason that job was given to me was as a revenge action for speaking up against a superior on an earlier occasion. Fortunately for me I had enough credit by then to be able to refuse the job and get away with it but technically that would have been the perfect pretext to fire me.

Growth is a process. Posts like these are part of that process, so I have plenty of hope that the OP will eventually manage to find his way, and improving on his communications skills would seem to be the first order of battle. Even saying 'no' is a sales job.

Re:Ask HN: Getting back into the working world with a negati... by abbasmehdi on Wednesday October 19, 2011 @12:56PM (#3130975)
Ed (edw519) recently gave us the I'm going to give it to you straight and I hope that you don't get offended or upset routine and after working with him we came out a million times better. If you are sincerely looking to improve your situation then you have my recommendation to take Ed up on his offer.
Re:Ask HN: Getting back into the working world with a negati... by throwaway789a on Wednesday October 19, 2011 @01:49PM (#3131209)
Thanks for your thoughtful answer. It contains a lot of things I have to think about. And no, it wasn't too tough, it is the kind of feedback I was looking for.

One clarification:

> A negative assessment of your boss? Whoa. That would piss me off, too. Why didn't you just talk to him?

Filling out the assessment form was a required preparation for the yearly staff appraisal. You fill it out, give it to your boss and then you discuss it with him at the meeting. Though the discussion never happened in my case.

Re:Ask HN: Getting back into the working world with a negati... by abbasmehdi on Wednesday October 19, 2011 @03:48PM (#3131744)
I think that's the point - why didn't you communicate major issues in private before humiliating in public?
Re:Ask HN: Getting back into the working world with a negati... by throwaway789a on Thursday October 20, 2011 @03:36AM (#3133865)
There was no public humiliation. The only person who saw the assessment form was my boss.
Re:Ask HN: Getting back into the working world with a negati... by abbasmehdi on Thursday October 20, 2011 @01:24PM (#3135820)
Glad to hear, however isn't that form added to his record/file with the company? I don't see HR shredding it. Unless I'm wrong.
Re:Ask HN: Getting back into the working world with a negati... by keeptrying on Thursday October 20, 2011 @01:54PM (#3135967)
If the boss deserves a negative assessment then he deserves to get one. The mistake that the OP made is believing that HR is there for low level employees and putting his true feelings on paper.

Always remember that HR is present to safeguard the company. They will look after the manager more than they look after you because he is, to the company, much more important.

OP: you need to learn what I learnt during my time in corporate America - focus on getting what u want instead of focussing on being right. When your a startup founder you can work on creating a better workplace. For now though focus on getting along with the boss. It's a way to make good money and it's a great skill to have - being able to work with difficult people.

Re:Ask HN: Getting back into the working world with a negati... by throwaway789a on Friday October 21, 2011 @10:52AM (#3139983)
HR was never involved in this (except in doing the admin stuff after the termination).

And it wasn't about my true feelings or me being right. I enjoy analyzing and thinking about stuff, and so when you give me an assessment form with about 20 topics, you will get a (critical) analysis of them. With my thoughts on what's good and what could be improved. And many questions. For me it was like a code or design review.

Re:Ask HN: Getting back into the working world with a negati... by keeptrying on Friday October 21, 2011 @12:30PM (#3140513)
Well all reviews go thru HR and its basically safer for you that way.

So your saying that a manager fired you solely on feedback u gave to him? I'm pretty sure that's illegal.

Also you seem stuck on "being right". That's a lonely place to be in my friend.

Re:Ask HN: Getting back into the working world with a negati... by throwaway789a on Saturday October 22, 2011 @10:36AM (#3143582)
> So your saying that a manager fired you solely on feedback u gave to him?

Yes.

> I'm pretty sure that's illegal.

Why would that be illegal?

Re:Ask HN: Getting back into the working world with a negati... by keeptrying on Sunday October 23, 2011 @02:17AM (#3145369)
You have to have good reason to fire an employee. There needs to be a paper trail of him not being able to do his job or him being generally insubordinate. The only thing that can legally get you fired on the spot is sexual harrasment or where you've broken the law in some manner that could affect the company.

Anyway you dont fit in to a regular command and control type organisation. Welcome to my world :) ....

Now if your generally a rebel but you do love creating things then you _might_ be an entrepreneur. First get a job and then view the job as the thing that allows you to become an entrepreneur in the future. Ie the job is your "Venture Capitalist". Save up enough so that you can quit in the future and go it on your own.

Again this means you have to put what you want before your urge to be right. This will take you about 3 years to learn. In 3 years you could have $50000 saved up and the oppurtunity of a lifetime to be an entrepreneur.

Re:Ask HN: Getting back into the working world with a negati... by greenyoda on Sunday October 23, 2011 @04:32PM (#3147164)
Actually, if someone is an "at-will" employee in the U.S. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/At-will_employment), you don't need any reason at all to fire him. Certainly gross insubordination (such as refusing to do a job when asked) is something that people are fired for all the time. Paper trails are useful when the employee is a member of a protected class and could allege in a law suit that they were fired because they were a minority, pregnant, over 40, etc. But that doesn't seem to apply to the original poster's situation.
Re:Ask HN: Getting back into the working world with a negati... by keeptrying on Sunday October 23, 2011 @06:07PM (#3147424)
I'm pretty sure your wrOng. There's a reason why incompetents ate kept on payroll for so long.
Re:Ask HN: Getting back into the working world with a negati... by throwaway789a on Tuesday October 25, 2011 @09:09AM (#3153914)
That's true. In my case I was not fired on the spot from a legal point of view. I had just to give up the keys, and my access to the company network was revoked, but legally I was still an employee for a while.

And maybe you are right about me being a potential entrepreneur. It's something that's in the back of my mind, but so far I didn't find a business idea.

Re:Ask HN: Getting back into the working world with a negati... by keeptrying on Wednesday October 26, 2011 @10:18PM (#3161350)
Go help someone. Someone who helps about of people is an Entrpreneur if he can figure out a way to make money for his help.
Re:Ask HN: Getting back into the working world with a negati... by abbasmehdi on Thursday October 20, 2011 @02:19PM (#3136101)
focus on getting what u want instead of focusing on being right. This is excellent advice.

If the boss deserves a negative assessment then he deserves to get one. Yes, but not without speaking with him first, giving him a chance to correct himself or working something out with the OP. It is wrong to come at anyone from the left field. Just like an employee does not deserve getting fired w/o fair warning, the boss does not like being written about to HR about without ever communicated with first.

Note: I am comparing firing with a bad review because they are both the strongest action the given party can take against the other.

Re:Ask HN: Getting back into the working world with a negati... by keeptrying on Thursday October 20, 2011 @07:17PM (#3137575)
Lots of my bosses have given me negative reviews without talking to me first.