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Re:Critique of Techno-Feudal Reason by MithrilTuxedo on Saturday May 07, 2022 @12:49PM (#31296259)
While some of us might try to gain power within our groups, the rest of the group is responsible for making sure they don't have too much power.

It's when those checks against individual power fail that those ways of organizing ourselves fail.

Elinor Ostrom got an economics Nobel in what I think is the economic side of this.

Re:Critique of Techno-Feudal Reason by joejerryronnie on Saturday May 07, 2022 @01:04PM (#31296412)
As a group expands in size, don’t the opportunities for an individual to amass wealth, and then translate that to power, also increase significantly?
Re:Critique of Techno-Feudal Reason by kqr on Saturday May 07, 2022 @01:13PM (#31296502)
There is nothing inherent about wealth that grants the owner power over many other people. The owner, if very skilled in combat, might be able to physically defend their wealth against three? Five? Eight? Other people. Beyond that they have no chance.

In any system where wealth converts to power, it does because the majority of people implicitly agree with playing the game that way.

In a practical egalitarian society, if the person with all the furs decided one day to not share, then the people would stop sharing their food, tools, building skills, childcare, medicinal treatments, fire, feasts, etc. with this person. They wouldn't have any choice but to rejoin society or try to go truly independent.

Re:Critique of Techno-Feudal Reason by cnelsenmilt on Saturday May 07, 2022 @02:12PM (#31297034)
Sure, and this is why the wealthy always use some of their wealth protecting themselves. In a society where physical violence is an immanent possibility they hire some kind of bodyguards; in a society like ours where the main threats are not physical in nature, they employ lawyers.
Re:Critique of Techno-Feudal Reason by kqr on Saturday May 07, 2022 @03:34PM (#31297798)
...but then why wouldn't the bodyguards just expropriate even greater quantities of that wealth than the wealthy would bestow on them?

Somehow, they have to first be convinced that the wealthy has some sort of moral right to their possessions. In other words, they have to play along in the game of wealth distribution.

Re:Critique of Techno-Feudal Reason by DarylZero on Saturday May 07, 2022 @08:33PM (#31300100)
> ...but then why wouldn't the bodyguards just expropriate even greater quantities of that wealth than the wealthy would bestow on them?

They would need to organize themselves collectively somehow.

> Somehow, they have to first be convinced that the wealthy has some sort of moral right to their possessions.

No, they just need to be convinced that they don't have any collective organization.

Slaves don't need to be convinced of the morality of their situation, just the hopelessness on it.

Re:Critique of Techno-Feudal Reason by joejerryronnie on Saturday May 07, 2022 @04:34PM (#31298315)
If the bodyguards had the ability to expropriate greater quantities of wealth, they wouldn’t be bodyguards.
Re:Critique of Techno-Feudal Reason by kqr on Saturday May 07, 2022 @04:38PM (#31298360)
I'm not sure I understand the situation you describe. If you hire 40 goons to guard your furs, those goons could physically overpower you and take your furs for themselves.

...unless you have convinced them of your moral right to those furs. That's literally the only way a large group of people can be "unable" to expropriate them.

Re:Critique of Techno-Feudal Reason by joejerryronnie on Saturday May 07, 2022 @04:46PM (#31298422)
I don’t believe the goons would be operating on the principle of your moral right to the furs, rather they would be taking the more practical approach of believing you can provide them with a better quality of life than the next guy (and that they don’t have the skills to acquire furs on their own)
Re:Critique of Techno-Feudal Reason by kqr on Saturday May 07, 2022 @05:07PM (#31298600)
That means they have to believe one person can single-handedly outperform the rest of society in caring for them. Sure, polymaths exist, but not to that extent.
Re:Critique of Techno-Feudal Reason by DarylZero on Saturday May 07, 2022 @08:51PM (#31300199)
That's a pretty absurd thing to say.

Each individual bodyguard has no reason to think they would have a higher rank after a coup replacing the "one person."

They absolutely don't need to believe that the person at the top is irreplaceable. Sometimes they've lived through a replacement or two!

Re:Critique of Techno-Feudal Reason by kqr on Sunday May 08, 2022 @07:04AM (#31302990)
I think we are talking about completely different situations since you bring up "higher rank".

I'm talking about an egalitarian society where one person suddenly tries to convince a band of friends that it's in their interest to close themselves off from the rest of society and try to extract value from it without contributing back.

There's no "rank" to be gained from refusing to join that band -- quite the opposite! You get to go back to a society that's free from rank.

Re:Critique of Techno-Feudal Reason by DarylZero on Sunday May 08, 2022 @10:14AM (#31304176)
"If you hire 40 goons to guard your furs, those goons could physically overpower you and take your furs for themselves."

^ At best they get to split the furs up among 40 people instead of 41.

(And if the 1 removed is actually doing any work, there's also more work to assign.)

There's little reason for any individual goon to think they're going to get a better deal this way. Let alone enough to compensate for the risk.

Removing the guy who takes "the lion's share" produces someone new to take the lion's share.

Unless they think they can do away with that entire structure. But then they have to believe they can change everyone's behavior all at once from collectively enforcing inequality to collectively enforcing equality.

The kind of social structure that makes this possible is the kind of social structure that the powerful person will make sure can't arise (by controlling information, removing potential leaders, etc.)

Re:Critique of Techno-Feudal Reason by kqr on Sunday May 08, 2022 @11:29AM (#31304941)
The premise of the question was "in an egalitarian society, what prevents someone from appropriating much of a resource and converting their possession to power?"

You seem to be approaching the question "in a hierarchical society, what makes it impossible for small bands of people to overpower the entire system all at once?" which is an interesting question, but a very different one.

Re:Critique of Techno-Feudal Reason by DarylZero on Sunday May 08, 2022 @11:37AM (#31305011)
Well, the premise is that there are 40 guards guarding one person's wealth -- which is a hierarchy. The guards are below, the wealthy person is above. And you were talking about what keeps them in their place rather than taking over from below.

I'm just saying that underling guards in general don't actually need to believe in the narrative the guarded elite uses as self-justification. Maybe they do believe it, maybe they feel obligated to pretend to believe, maybe it's all naked self-interest... regardless, what really keeps them in their position is the grid of power/interest.

Re:Critique of Techno-Feudal Reason by DarylZero on Saturday May 07, 2022 @08:57PM (#31300246)
> There is nothing inherent about wealth that grants the owner power over many other people. The owner, if very skilled in combat, might be able to physically defend their wealth

In order to even have a concept of "owning wealth" there must be a physical defense of wealth already set up.

It's "inherent" in that sense. Owning the thing means having some means of physical militaristic defense of the thing.

The underlying fact you're referencing here is simply that the means of defense is never an individual's physical power.

What it is instead, is their position in a social graph of interests. Other people in the society have their own lives structured so that it's in their interests to serve and protect power.

Re:Critique of Techno-Feudal Reason by kqr on Sunday May 08, 2022 @12:43AM (#31301370)
I don't want to disagree with your nuanced and well-reasoned reply in general.

However, ownership exists in egalitarian forms of organisation too. It's not the "exclusive right to prevent others from using the thing", but in any human arrangement people understand that some objects are needed by some people (crutch, broken leg), some objects are more actively used by some people (household hatchet, cutting wood every week), and some objects have sentimental value for some people (grandma's ashes.)

These things normally count as property, with no violence to enforce it.

Re:Critique of Techno-Feudal Reason by joejerryronnie on Saturday May 07, 2022 @04:31PM (#31298298)
Sure you can overpower me and steal everything I have - once. Or you can join me and I’ll provide you a better living than those others for the rest of your life.
Re:Critique of Techno-Feudal Reason by kqr on Saturday May 07, 2022 @04:36PM (#31298346)
Yeah, so then we're looking at a person who is so adept at everything that they single-handedly can outperform society in providing necessary functions for other people. If that sort of person exists, they're surely rare enough that it makes no sense to optimise society around them.
Re:Critique of Techno-Feudal Reason by lumost on Saturday May 07, 2022 @05:30PM (#31298795)
The individual in question needn’t outperform the rest of society, they merely need to be critical to the activities of the rest of society. Whether Their criticality is necessary, just, or effective doesn't matter. But it does mean that they can pay bodyguards better than everyone else, and there is no inherent reason to believe the body guards will beanle to step into that role.
Re:Critique of Techno-Feudal Reason by kqr on Sunday May 08, 2022 @07:13AM (#31303039)
By "pay better", do you mean "provide all services required for a comfortable life"?
Re:Critique of Techno-Feudal Reason by DarylZero on Sunday May 08, 2022 @10:20AM (#31304246)
Humans will suffer very bad leadership indeed. Not only does the leadership not need to be "the best" -- they can be very abusive and tyrannical for a very long time, before any kind of collective revolt is organized.

"all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed"

Re:Critique of Techno-Feudal Reason by goodpoint on Sunday May 08, 2022 @01:55PM (#31306365)
> As a group expands in size, don’t the opportunities for an individual to amass wealth, and then translate that to power, also increase significantly?

Yes and no. Human societies in general have concepts of personal property (i.e. something you use, like your toothbrush).

Not all societies have concepts of private property that we have today i.e. something you never use but still control. This is a complex set of viewpoints with many conflicts. They changed a lot over time. Many are very modern.

E.g. you can become owner of land by adverse possession.

In many egalitarian societies a person hoarding excessive amounts of objects is seen as unhinged.