News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:OpenVMS on x86 by memetomancer on Friday May 06, 2022 @11:55AM (#31286659)
I am an enthusiastic fan of VMS - my first job was tending to a small VAX cluster. I sat down and read the entire hardcopy documentation, which was maybe as many as twenty 3" binders.

After learning about the OpenVMS community license I got excited and applied for a license. Bought myself a [PiDP-11](https://obsolescence.wixsite.com/obsolescence/pidp-11) and got ready to party.

OpenVMS got back to me, asking me to clarify just why I wanted this software. I has already explained my background and intent. They said it was insufficient justification and pointed me to a (windows based) student package :( Very discouraging.

I just can't understand why they would make this ancient OS so inaccessible. It is genuinely great stuff, and with an active community it would probably re-emerge as a legitimate contender.

So, all that being said, I followed the link and read the FAQ, and found this: >"You can participate in the field test if you are a customer or partner of VSI with a valid support contract."

What gives, VSI. what the heck even gives?!

Re:OpenVMS on x86 by inejge on Friday May 06, 2022 @02:48PM (#31288511)
I just can't understand why they would make this ancient OS so inaccessible.

The OS is used by a limited and probably dwindling number of vendors of specialized, complex and long-lived software originally developed for VAX/VMS. I was tangentially related to users of such software for a while; the vendor made the VAX->Alpha and Alpha->Itanium transitions, but saw the writing on the wall and ported the software away from VMS. VSI is not a large outfit, and they're a business. They don't need the hassle of dealing with hobbyists.

It is genuinely great stuff, and with an active community it would probably re-emerge as a legitimate contender.

It's a fascinating and superbly documented system, agreed. But a contender? Far too late for that, IMO, if it was ever in the cards (I don't think so.)

Re:OpenVMS on x86 by phendrenad2 on Friday May 06, 2022 @12:17PM (#31286938)
Maybe security through obscurity? They can legitimately tell their customers "not just anyone can get a copy of VMS" and then they can imply that that means that hackers can't hack it or something. I'm sure big government customers go for that sort of thing.
Re:OpenVMS on x86 by chasil on Friday May 06, 2022 @02:01PM (#31288095)
Older versions of VMS have a showstopper login bug that can be used to obtain the full privilege of the kernel.

There are many older VMS installations where this cannot be fixed, and more still where it is not worth the trouble of engaging a support contract to obtain the patches.

https://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/02/06/openvms_vulnerabili...

Re:OpenVMS on x86 by jasomill on Friday May 06, 2022 @03:51PM (#31289039)
Anyone can get a copy of VMS, just not this closed beta.

VSI plans to add the x86 version to the free community license program [1] at a later date.

In the mean time, the Alpha version runs very well under emulation, and is available both under the CLP (free, registration required[1]; also includes Itanium, though AFAIK no emulators capable of running it exist), and as a freely downloadable (no registration required), preinstalled student kit bundled with a preconfigured Windows emulator[2].

Note that the "student" license is unrestricted for non-commercial use; you don't have to be an actual student to use it.

[1] https://vmssoftware.com/community/community-license/ (note "x86 (planned)")

[2] https://training.vmssoftware.com/student-license/

Re:OpenVMS on x86 by flenserboy on Friday May 06, 2022 @02:17PM (#31288249)
The documentation was amazing. I did campus backups in the white room back in college, and for some reason that was the place they had shelf after shelf of these binders; while the Vaxen hummed, I read through them. It was something of a letdown to move to MAN pages when we got some UNIX boxen.
Re:OpenVMS on x86 by jnsquire on Saturday May 07, 2022 @08:22AM (#31293948)
ah, a fellow tape monkey. Our "white room" had collected 25 years of old hardware and manuals back in the 90s. I loved trawling through it all. Best job ever.
Re:OpenVMS on x86 by ch_123 on Friday May 06, 2022 @01:27PM (#31287726)
That's strange, I've been able to get access to their license and I did not have to give a particularly elaborate story/justification for them.

I do own a real Alpha system and pointed this fact out in my request, so maybe that helped?

Re:OpenVMS on x86 by jasomill on Friday May 06, 2022 @02:49PM (#31288524)
I had no problem getting both Alpha and Itanium kits from VSI, after explaining that I planned to run on an Alpha emulator and a hypothetical Itanium box that I didn't actually own yet, but may someday acquire. So they're clearly not too picky about hardware ownership.

They did initially suggest the student package to me as well, but after replying that I had prior VMS experience and would prefer to install and configure the system myself, they promptly issued my licenses.

Re:OpenVMS on x86 by memetomancer on Friday May 06, 2022 @03:28PM (#31288841)
Thanks, I gave up after the student package referral... which I guess worked as designed! Maybe now I will get some genuine hardware and take another shot.
Re:OpenVMS on x86 by nix23 on Saturday May 07, 2022 @04:04AM (#31292925)
>Thanks, I gave up after the student package referral...

Because it's the easier option for people who just want to try it out or don't want to invest time (which seams to be the case with you).

Re:OpenVMS on x86 by nix23 on Saturday May 07, 2022 @03:37AM (#31292824)
That was absolutely NOT the case for me:

They literally wrote:

quote:

"we understand that not everyone has a windows machine (studentpackage), if you still want/need a community license (alpha iso) please answer....."

One day later got my alpha OpenVMS key

EDIT: And when someone from VMSSOFTWARE reads this: Thank you!! It's still part of HNET/BITNET ;)

EDIT2: If someone want's to try out openvms like sdf.org:

https://eisner.decus.org/online/

Re:OpenVMS on x86 by Aloha on Friday May 06, 2022 @12:00PM (#31286723)
I dont understand - did you have an Integrity or Alpha you wanted to run it on?
Re:OpenVMS on x86 by memetomancer on Friday May 06, 2022 @12:26PM (#31287027)
I was considering getting a Vax station 3100, but otherwise planned to run it on SIMH (emulator).
Re:OpenVMS on x86 by jasomill on Friday May 06, 2022 @02:00PM (#31288077)
Last I heard, VSI's agreement with HP only permits them to issue licenses for VSI OpenVMS releases, and they've never released a VAX build. So at this point, any VAX license would have to come from HP (who, AFAIK, is no longer issuing them, at least not to hobbyists).
Re:OpenVMS on x86 by classichasclass on Friday May 06, 2022 @12:36PM (#31287147)
I've actually got a VAXstation 3100 M76. It's fun to run it on the hardware, but most of these little VAXen have performance most charitably described as pedestrian.
Re:OpenVMS on x86 by the_only_law on Friday May 06, 2022 @01:45PM (#31287917)
Yeah they later ones aren’t priced to bad on eBay. You can occasionally find some minicomputers and some of the larger VAXStations but they tend to be a lot more especially considering it would have to ship freight.
Re:OpenVMS on x86 by dhosek on Friday May 06, 2022 @02:21PM (#31288277)
I was tempted (but fortunately didn’t succumb) to buy the IBM 4000-series minicomputer my college was decommissioning in the 90s. It would have been both cool and an overwhelming burden to have this thing.
Re:OpenVMS on x86 by icedchai on Friday May 06, 2022 @12:35PM (#31287139)
If you google "VMS Liberation Front", your licensing problems will be solved.
Re:OpenVMS on x86 by huslage on Friday May 06, 2022 @01:26PM (#31287719)
Next we need a z/OS Liberation Front
Re:OpenVMS on x86 by skissane on Friday May 06, 2022 @10:20PM (#31291629)
Older versions of z/OS and OS/390 are easy to come by online [0], and from what I've heard run well under Hercules–although I myself have never tried (I have run the public domain MVS 3.8J in the past, in particular the TK4- distribution of it.) Of course, downloading and running those online versions violates IBM's license agreements and quite likely violates copyright laws – but you can make your own judgement about the legal risk and ethics of that.

I think getting your hands on the most recent versions – such as the latest z/OS 2.5 – is a lot harder, unless you work for IBM or an IBM customer, or you know someone who does (and who is willing to help you out, an action which may involve some risk for them). In recent years IBM has added hurdles to make unauthorised distribution harder (such as encrypting the ADCD distributions), although those hurdles are not insurmountable, they just add more work (usual story with DRM). And I think you'll find Hercules will barf on the latest versions of z/OS anyway.

If you want to latest versions from IBM totally legitimately – IBM will sell you a development environment (zPDT) for US$5,540 a year. If you need it for work, could be a totally reasonable investment. If you are just doing it to muck around – well, that's an expensive hobby, although certainly there are people out there who spend more than US$5,000 a year on their hobby, and many people here earn enough they can afford it – but you'd have to really enjoy it for it to be worth it. I doubt there are many people out there who enjoy z/OS that much – although there is one retired IBM guy in Orkney, Scotland (Colin Paice), who does, and he's actually blogged about how he forked the money out and bought it [1].

[0] I think it is better not to say where publicly, in part because doing so draws attention to those places and attention might result in IBM issuing takedown notices. If you know the right search terms it is easy to find.

[1] https://colinpaice.blog/2020/06/29/getting-z-os-installed-on...

Re:OpenVMS on x86 by jamal-kumar on Saturday May 07, 2022 @01:41AM (#31292408)
Wasn't there that kid that IBM uses as a sort of new mascot for mainframe stuff who bought an old mainframe and got it working in his basement? [1]

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45X4VP8CGtk

Re:OpenVMS on x86 by kotaKat on Friday May 06, 2022 @01:48PM (#31287951)
^ This. The amount of hoops for an aspiring mainframer that just wants to poke at z/PDT and throw money at IBM is silly. They ghosted me after trying to sign up for it.
Re:OpenVMS on x86 by skissane on Friday May 06, 2022 @10:49PM (#31291749)
All you have to do is go to this website – https://www.ibm.com/marketplace/purchase/configuration/en/us... – sign in with your IBM ID (anyone can create one), and provide your details, and give your credit card number. I've successfully done it up to the step where you give your credit card, I haven't taken it further because I'm not sufficiently interested in this to justify to myself giving IBM so much money.

One thing I noticed – IBM does not want individual consumers as customers, only enterprises. If you say they live in the US, the order form says "IBM products are only available for commercial, academic, public, research, or other organizational use", and asks you for an organisation name. I am in Australia, so I give my country of Australia and home address, it then asks me to certify I am buying it for a business, and won't let the order process continue unless I tick it. For Australian orders, it also asks for an Australian Business Number (ABN), which you get from the government when you register a business with them. (Government agencies, and educational/religious/charitable/nonprofit/etc institutions, and trusts, are also eligible for them.) I guess the US equivalent would be an IRS EIN, or a DUNS number, but the US order form doesn't ask for one, just an organisation name.

Anyone in Australia, can get an ABN, but you have to tell the government you are running a business, and in theory they can revoke it if you aren't a real business (and occasionally they actually have). However, another way to get an ABN – anyone can incorporate a company, and when you do you get an Australian Company Number (ACN), and anyone with an ACN is automatically entitled to an ABN (the ABN is just the ACN with a couple of checksum digits prefixed). I actually own a company, which does nothing and has never done anything – one day I was daydreaming about starting my own business, so I created a corporation, and then I daydreamed a bit more, and then I parked the idea – but I pay US$200 a year to the government to keep my corporation alive, so I have a legitimate ABN to give them through that. There is no legal requirement for a corporation to do anything, a "shelf corporation" which stays forever dormant and just pays the annual fees (and engages in a few other pro forma annual legal rituals) is legally just as valid as a billion dollar company

If I gave them my credit card number, and let them charge all that $$$ to it – I expect they'd process the order. How are they supposed to know that my "business", despite being a real legal corporation, is actually just a "fantasy daydream business" not a real one? I don't see how they could tell. (I mean, I could be an independent contractor/consultant/freelancer working through that corporation, rather than a full-time employee – and maybe one day I shall be.) They could cancel the order and give me the $$$ back instead of fulfilling it, but I'd be surprised if they did that.

Indeed, ex-IBM employee Colin Paice in Scotland reports successfully buying it from them – https://colinpaice.blog/2020/06/29/getting-z-os-installed-on... – I guess one thing that may help – don't say it is for a hobby or personal use, claim it is for a business (which if you think about it, doesn't even have to be a lie – tell yourself a story about how you are going to use this to develop software to sell people, and if you believe your own story, that makes it true – who knows, believing in it might even make it happen – and if it doesn't ever actually happen, well a lot of businesses fail, often even just as they are getting started...)

Re:OpenVMS on x86 by Koshkin on Friday May 06, 2022 @03:44PM (#31288984)
OS/370 is all we will ever need.
Re:OpenVMS on x86 by the_only_law on Friday May 06, 2022 @01:44PM (#31287911)
I don’t think modern OpenVMS runs on VAX anymore. But hey if you have the ever popular Itanium architecture, it will run.
Re:OpenVMS on x86 by sehro on Friday May 06, 2022 @04:27PM (#31289317)
Yeh, the last OpenVMS release for VAX was 7.sommat, and hasn't been updated since. Alpha and Itanium still have active releases with mostly feature parity, tho.