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Re:SELinux is unmanageable; just turn it off if it gets in y... by ethbr0 on Wednesday April 27, 2022 @08:55AM (#31179256)
>> The whole container movement can be seen as putting the apps in a sarcophagus like Chernobyl. […] Who is responsible that it is air tight? Well, uh, nobody, really.

> The people who designed the container/sarcophagus system.

Original comment misses two nuances with the gripe.

1. Container creators and software creators are not the same people. So they can (and should!) have different goals and priorities. For containers, security and reliability. For software, make it work.

2. There is a nuanced, different interface between software-system and container-system, created by encapsulating a system-like environment inside the container. Much of what software does can be encapsulated. Which allows a more controlled (and much smaller) subset to exit the container.

Re:SELinux is unmanageable; just turn it off if it gets in y... by throw0101a on Wednesday April 27, 2022 @11:43AM (#31181417)
> 1. Container creators and software creators are not the same people. So they can (and should!) have different goals and priorities. For containers, security and reliability. For software, make it work.

If the container system designers did their job properly it won't matter what the software does inside of it, as breakouts shouldn't be possible.

It has been a few years since I looked, but last time I checked there hasn't been a vulnerability in FreeBSD's jails code that allowed someone to break out. The closest to it was an issue with devfs that allowed 'tunnelling' out, but not with the actual Jails code itself:

* https://www.freebsd.org/security/advisories/FreeBSD-SA-14:07...

Meanwhile, with Docker (including CVE-2019-5736, which allows for overwriting runc on the host system):

* https://www.cvedetails.com/vulnerability-list/vendor_id-1353...

> 2. There is a nuanced, different interface between software-system and container-system

One keeps things inside and other other often doesn't?

Re:SELinux is unmanageable; just turn it off if it gets in y... by ethbr0 on Wednesday April 27, 2022 @03:05PM (#31184366)
One side has a huge footprint to secure (software-system), because it's every way software could ever need to interact with a local system.

The other can expose a much smaller one (container-system), because it only needs to include things one would have gone off-local-machine for (i.e. networking).

So from a security boundary, containers are basically a machine-internal firewall between programs and the host.

Re:SELinux is unmanageable; just turn it off if it gets in y... by throw0101a on Wednesday April 27, 2022 @03:16PM (#31184496)
> So from a security boundary, containers are basically a machine-internal firewall between programs and the host.

Which is only useful if they actually provide security.

Re:SELinux is unmanageable; just turn it off if it gets in y... by ethbr0 on Wednesday April 27, 2022 @05:46PM (#31186220)
You're missing my point.

It's effectively impossible to ever provide security at the program-system interface, due to the surface area. (I.e. the SELinux problem)

The very concept of having a container (that internally simulates a system) creates fundamentally different opportunities that allow both (programs that work) and (security).

Whinging about whether or not current containers do a good or bad job of it is a less interesting, short term quibble.