That's a ridiculous strawman. Your comment amounts to being mad that people do no do what you think they should do. That's it.

You can literally use that argument for everything.

"Why don't gay people just shut up and stay in the closest for the benefit of societal cohesion? So egoistic."

"People who are afraid of covid are so self centered and would rather shut down entire societies than to self sacrifice a bit!! Why should we accomodate the hypochondriacs"

And as a muslim your comment, ironically enough, reminds me of how some neocons excused discriminating against Muslims. "Wow I mean there are terrorists out there and we should care about "muh freedomz" for Muslims? After 9/11? Well discriminating and targeting all Muslims is just a small sacrifice for the greater good of our society, it's just the rational thing to do."

There's absolutely no merit to that type of argument. obviously anyone fighting for "mah freedum" as you call it will always be ridiculed and not taken seriously by everyone, by definition. The only thing different and unique this time is the honestly troubling trend of mocking and belittling the concept of freedom or rights in general, just to "own the other side". I'm sure that normalizing such a dangerous rhetoric won't turn against you eventually.

> Your comment amounts to being mad that people do no do what you think they should do. That's it. You can literally use that argument for everything.

Well, if we're going to go reaching for the fallacy labels -- that's a pretty textbook appeal to extremes. Discrimination against any portion of the population is reprehensible. But the big moral challenge is determining what exactly constitutes discrimination. Where is the line between just punishment under the law, and discrimination?

Society's laws are designed to protect the interests of everyone in that society (without discrimination!) from those around them that would hurt them, whether through malice or negligence. Implicit in those laws is the idea that you seem to be protesting: that in certain situations, Person A knows better than Person B what's good for Person B. Or, as it may be, what liberties to withhold from Person B to protect others from them. That's prison. And as fucked up and inhumane as I think the American prison system is, I don't know whether it's really possible to have a society without _some_ sort of way of withholding certain rights from people for the protection of others.

And yes, that line of thinking absolutely can (and does) slide down the hellchute into totalitarianism. Avoiding either extreme of that spectrum is the challenge of living in a democracy (or what masquerades as one these days).

I mean I agree with most of your comment! My whole point was that as you said, the entire discussion is not black and white and the debate of what are the limits is far from settled (and never will Be, imo). But that's exactly what makes the whole "Wow muh freedumbz man children should just man up" so ridiculous and completely insipid. It does not acknowledge any of that nuance and basically aims to discredit even the notion that there is a debate to be had.

Obviously my comment was an appeal to extremes (though honestly, the part about discriminating against muslim was literally was a common talking point). But that was exactly to show how smug and dismissive the argument was.

You're right that "mah freedumbz" is a derogative whistle. I should have put a little more effort into voicing my frustration than reaching for the easy virtue signal. It's just so frustrating sometimes, though!

I get it! I should've also toned down my original comment so I'm sorry about that. I think everyone is exhausted after the past few years, but it hopefully can't get much worse... right?!

Wat? Superhero movies are all about sacrifice. Almost every superhero is practically dedicating their life to serving the public good. Half the superhero movies are about how things only work when we come together and cooperate. Maybe I mis-understood your point?

I think they're only superficially about sacrifice. Look what you gain in exchange: apotheosis. The child-god in all of us wants to be recognized as special, exceptional, unique.

> Life is best spent in service to others.

[citation needed]

I think this is one of those things that is learned through experience (wisdom) and will never be proven with any citations (i.e. peer-reviewed, rigorous collective experience).

Not that I have that wisdom myself. I only think I might arrive at that conclusion eventually.

You can't get from an is to an ought.

It matters a lot whether self-sacrifice and service are self-chosen, or whether they are forced by the state, or under threat of retaliation.

Many people who are individualists advocate for self-sacrifice and service as virtues, freely chosen.

Virtue under threat of punishment or retaliation is not virtue at all.

Yep and the sad thing is to see it most apparent in "conservative" voices, when traditional conservativism was most specifically about this moral fiber, community service, and something "greater than yourself" in one's church, town, nation, etc.

I'm not a conservative, myself, but it's kinda crazy to watch from a distance. Especially in the current context of watching Ukrainians fighting on the battlefield, Poles giving up half their homes, etc. to refugees from Ukraine, etc.

EDIT: also, it isn't restricted to the USA. It has been on full display here in Canada, and in Europe as well.

Well the Canadian government decided to suspend the charter over a protest, so if anything to me that just shows the opposite of what you are saying (that people are supposedly just hysterical about a loss of rights that doesn't exist).

And before you say that it was nothing out of the ordinary, remember that even during the Oka Crisis the federal government did not take such extreme measures. That was a multi week armed standoff with hundreds of armed combatants, killed police officers, led to a very damaging blockade around montreal. Yet, no charter was suspended and the federal government did not do everything to antagonize the Mohawks. Pretty crazy compared to what happened in ottawa.

So there is definitely a reason to be worried, and saying that it's worse somewhere else is irrelevant. Or do we just dismiss any social justice movement too since wow, they are complaining about trivial stuff compared to the sacrifice ukrainians are making?

lol, a "protest". Please.

Listen, I'm 48 years old and have been protesting since I was a teen. I've been teargassed, pepper sprayed, charged by horse mounted police, faced a line of riot cops. Mostly after said protest went, maybe, I dunno, one hour past what its permitted time was or beyond some fenced area, or encroached near where a gov't figure was. I wasn't at it, but for kicks some time, google "g20 kettling toronto" and see what happened to protesters peacefully sitting in the middle of an intersection in Toronto in a vaguely festive atmosphere when the police decide to go completely apeshit and actually really violate people's charter rights.

These anti-vax "protesters" blocked two international border crossings, harassed people in downtown Ottawa, blasted horns, kept stores closed, displayed hate speech and flags, threatened public officials, kept illegal firearms, the list goes on. For weeks. Many weeks. 24/7.

"supend the charter" -- much more extreme measures have been taken against myself and others I've protested with -- they just didn't bother to "suspend the charter" officially before doing it. They just did it. Threw people in detention, searched their crap illegally, whatever they felt like doing. Because that's what police do to actual protesters, as opposed to wanky authoritarian far-right neo-fascists that they publicly sympathize with.

They didn't suspend the charter in the Oka crisis because they didn't need to. They just tear gassed, used concussion grenades, arrested and beat people (Ronaldo Casalpro) in captivity. Or used bayonets on them (Waneek Horn-Miller).

The charter had to be "suspended" and governments were forced to intervene because the police refused to do their job... a job they are far far too eager to exercise when it's people they don't agree with.

Charter is a piece of paper.

Amazing that you were a protester that faced abuse yet you still use the same exact dismissive rhetoric the government uses to excuse every abuse and crackdown against protests. The G20 protests weren't protest, they were just riots from wannabe terrorists. See how easy it is to just do what you did?

And yeah sure the charter is just a piece of paper, but again I'm not sure what's your point. You are basically arguing that we might as well not even try. Remember that that piece of paper will be used against you and I'm not sure how far that "it's just a piece of paper!" Argument will go with a judge. The Charter is extremely weak, but this is still an unprecedented reaction in the post war western world. Over a bunch of truckers and 0 violence.

Also, you are repeating literal fake news. The guy with the nazi flag lasted for a few minutes before getting kicked out by the rest of the protesters. Again, if you participated in the g20 protests and cannot see how easy it is to plant agitators or use one off events to justify discrediting a whole protest...

My point here is that no matter what's your stance on the vaccine (and I'm extremely pro vaccine, I probably went in person with more than a dozen of my friends and co-workers to get them vaccinated if they were afraid/hesitant), the rhetoric around the trucker rally is extremely dangerous. It is setting a precedent, and next time we get a first nation protest/blockade, or a BLM protest (both of which I usually support) under a more conservative government, let's hope that the charter won't be seen as just a piece of paper again.

It makes me sad that we (the United States) have entirely lost our e pluribus unum. In some quarters, folks consider the mere idea to be communism. Of course they're not exactly deep thinkers, those folks, but that's the dominant POV in the deep red state in which I live.

Externally, America had never looked as united as America has liked to project. Segregation, Jim Crow laws, "No Irish, no Italians" signs in windows, rife religious sectarianism and a law enforcement system with a long history of directed violence.

It probably seems like America is getting divided more starkly, but to outsiders its just more of the same from a country that had a civil war over slavery. It waxes and wanes but it never really goes away.

It was meant as a goal to strive for, not an end already achieved.

In the other quarters, I'm not sure that the e pluribus unum melting pot concept is any less obsolete. All of our various factions seem headed in the direction of fracture and balkanization, we just vary on the details.

I would argue that, to this day, in most quarters, e pluribus unum is deeply engraved. It’s presence can be considered a true test of one’s metal. Any newly minted ethos just won’t do.

> newly minted eth

Cryptocurrencies make their inevitable appearance in the thread! :]

> In some quarters, folks consider the mere idea to be communism.

And in other quarters, they believe we have permanent, irreconcilable differences based on race, sex, and sexuality making the whole idea of "out of many, one" unthinkable.

At bare minimum, one would think we could all agree that it's a good thing to honestly teach our nation's actual history — rather than trying to ban teaching it so that we can pretend that systemic racism is not and never was a thing.

> Life is best spent in service to others.

Maybe for you, not for me. I live life to serve myself above all else. It so happens that helping people I care about also serves me, because it makes me happy. But "for the greater good" is an incredibly toxic, near cult-like mentality that should absolutely not be encouraged without nuance.

I don't want to die feeling like I took more from the universe than I gave back, I guess is what I'm trying to say. I'm not advocating cult-like asceticism or pointless self-deprivation. You could argue that those are the dark side of selfishness anyway.

Self worship is also incredibly toxic and should not be encouraged without nuance. Selfishness can lead to a lack of empathy for others and a lack of awareness of how one's actions can affect other people.