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Re:Windows 8: Is Microsoft flailing? by untog on Friday October 14, 2011 @12:21PM (#3111762)
"Dukhon has in effect told current users to “take one for the team,” arguing that eventually, once everyone converts to the new system, and all the developers rebuild their applications for it, everyone will benefit. This arrogantly assumes that everyone is in the same boat as those at Microsoft — addicted for life to Windows and willing to put up with yet more years of change and inconvenience, to get to some future nirvana."

That's exactly the approach that Apple takes time and time again- pushing forward, being innovative, and telling everyone (particularly app makers) to catch up.

When they do it they are being "bold", yet when Microsoft does it is "flailing". I don't understand why.

Re:Windows 8: Is Microsoft flailing? by raganwald on Friday October 14, 2011 @12:26PM (#3111783)
When they do it they are being "bold", yet when Microsoft does it is "flailing”.

There are two ways to answer that question. One is to suggest that there is no difference between Microsoft and Apple’s design and implementations, and it is simply a question of prejudice.

The other is to suggest that on balance, Apple’s changes pay off positively for users while Miscrosoft’s do not. In which case they are both doing the same thing in theory, but different things in practice.

Are you arguing either of these cases?

Re:Windows 8: Is Microsoft flailing? by wanorris on Friday October 14, 2011 @02:04PM (#3112225)
It seems clear that there are some differences between Microsoft's designs and implementations and Apple's. But if you compare, say, DOS, Windows 3.1, Windows 95, Windows XP, and Windows 7, it seems difficult to make the case that Microsoft's changes to Windows have not paid off positively for users on balance over the years. Certainly there have been missteps, but those missteps have, to date, always been overcome over time, and almost never by backtracking to the previous state of affairs.

Perhaps there have been sufficient missteps, though, that people feel they have both license and cause to second guess major changes.

Whether Win 8 itself ends up being successful or not is still an open question, of course. But I will be happy to wager that (A) there will be a major next successful version of Windows, and (B) it will look a lot more like the Win 8 Developer Preview than it does like Win 7.

Re:Windows 8: Is Microsoft flailing? by huxley on Saturday October 15, 2011 @09:35AM (#3114792)
> DOS, Windows 3.1, Windows 95, Windows XP, and Windows 7

Not that I disagree with you, but it would be fairer to include Microsoft's serious missteps like DOS 4, Windows 286, Windows ME, and Windows Vista.

Re:Windows 8: Is Microsoft flailing? by adgar on Friday October 14, 2011 @01:44PM (#3112134)
In addition, it ignores Microsoft's long-standing dedication to backwards-compatibility and attention to legacy customers. Microsoft, and Windows in particular, has always been the safe haven of those unable or unwilling to change.
Re:Windows 8: Is Microsoft flailing? by recoiledsnake on Friday October 14, 2011 @01:51PM (#3112163)
>In addition, it ignores Microsoft's long-standing dedication to backwards-compatibility and attention to legacy customers

Err what? All the apps still run and run natively. This not even like Apple's move to Intel. It's just the Start menu UI that's being changed. This is more like the Ribbon UI being introduced in Office 2007 replacing the traditional toolbar.

There were predictions then that companies would shift to OpenOffice because the ribbons were too jarring to users. How did that turn out?

Re:Windows 8: Is Microsoft flailing? by adgar on Friday October 14, 2011 @01:58PM (#3112201)
My point was more abstract than that. The thread I was in was concerned with how when Apple makes big changes, they are called bold, while when Microsoft does it, they are called flailing.

My point was that the comparison must take into account the culture each company takes toward accommodating the needs and tastes of legacy/long-standing customers. Pulling out one example - the Ribbon in Office, which people still bitch about to this day, mind you - does very little to argue that Microsoft has a tradition of bold changes breaking existing user expectations. Such an argument would need to be much, much stronger.

Re:Windows 8: Is Microsoft flailing? by cooldeal on Friday October 14, 2011 @02:15PM (#3112266)
>he other is to suggest that on balance, Apple’s changes pay off positively for users while Miscrosoft’s do not.

I am curious regarding MS's big changes that you consider that didn't help users, Vista? Office Ribbon? Windows Phone 7?

Re:Windows 8: Is Microsoft flailing? by raganwald on Friday October 14, 2011 @04:48PM (#3112884)
I’m not saying they don’t help users. I bought a Tablet PC and liked it.
Re:Windows 8: Is Microsoft flailing? by barista on Friday October 14, 2011 @02:01PM (#3112213)
I think its the former. Whether Microsoft's efforts pay off or not is yet to be seen as the OS is not even in Beta yet.
Re:Windows 8: Is Microsoft flailing? by Herring on Friday October 14, 2011 @01:10PM (#3111983)
1) Nothing succeeds like success. It settles a lot of arguments in people's minds, and Microsoft's mobile strategy is not succeeding.

2) Microsoft's users are likely more change-averse than Apple's.

3) Over the years, Microsoft has cultivated a reputation that is rather different from Apple's. That directly affects how the two are perceived.

Re:Windows 8: Is Microsoft flailing? by Gormo on Friday October 14, 2011 @11:31PM (#3113903)
Microsoft's mobile strategy is not succeeding. Microsoft's desktop strategy has been consistently successful for 20 years. So why are they allowing their mobile strategy to seep into their bread-and-butter desktop market?

Microsoft has built a reputation of maintaining a consistent and reliable platform, and bending over backwards for backward-compatibility. Why are they giving play to the avant-garde UI experimentation that, all things being equal, might drive desktop customer back to MS? I've read more than one report of people fed up with Unity or Gnome3 switching back to Win7.

Re:Windows 8: Is Microsoft flailing? by digikata on Friday October 14, 2011 @02:00PM (#3112207)
I see the difference at cultural focus of Microsoft vs Apple. Apple is focused on the end-user experience, all technical, design and marketing considerations follow. Microsoft has come from a past where their focus hasn't been directly on the end user, rather it's on sufficient (but not exceptional) user experience in order to sell to businesses and system vendors. Furthermore, I feel like Microsoft has a flow of marketing/sales -> feature lists -> technical development which really detracts from the total system integration focus needed to make the end-user experience, well, magical.

To some extent, Google has a similar disconnect. Their main customer isn't the end-user, it's ad-buying businesses, and, with Android, handset and tablet vendors. Either way, it's not the end-of-the-world, but I think it's a key basis that leads to how the different products of the companies end up in terms of polish and integration.

Re:Windows 8: Is Microsoft flailing? by pseudonym on Friday October 14, 2011 @02:13PM (#3112257)
I think it's just a question of "Will this be a thing, or will this be dropped as a dud?" Microsoft has a history of pushing hard on things (Silverlight comes to mind) and then dropping it a year or two later when it doesn't gain enough traction, so naturally Windows developers are a lot more wary of the "brand new thing".

Additionally, for better or worse, Apple's hardware cycle tends to be a lot shorter than Microsoft's-- the fact that you can't upgrade a system piecemeal pushes people onto the latest and greatest, which means it already comes supporting the software for the same, as opposed to the people still using Windows 98.

Re:Windows 8: Is Microsoft flailing? by wcchandler on Friday October 14, 2011 @12:55PM (#3111909)
I don't see this as a double standard. Instead, it's catering to your audience.

Apple products need to be beautiful. Microsoft needs to be accessible.

Re:Windows 8: Is Microsoft flailing? by joe_the_user on Friday October 14, 2011 @01:49PM (#3112157)
It may be simple realism.

If Microsoft doesn't have the brand loyalty of Apple, it is foolish (for it) and annoying (to us) for it to try to leverage loyalty into a willingness to suffer now for the future.

Edit: plus, Apple has earned (or otherwise acquired) a trust level that lets it ask its users to wait for the future. I don't Microsoft has this.