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Re:Canadians consider certain religions damaging to society:... by rmatt2000 on Monday April 18, 2022 @08:38PM (#31078525)
Mao and Stalin might disagree.
Re:Canadians consider certain religions damaging to society:... by nautilius on Monday April 18, 2022 @09:33PM (#31078893)
Would they? What's that god they killed for?
Re:Canadians consider certain religions damaging to society:... by getcrunk on Monday April 18, 2022 @09:40PM (#31078939)
I think the point was trying to make is that having a god is ultimately irrelevant to being an evil murderer
Re:Canadians consider certain religions damaging to society:... by nautilius on Monday April 18, 2022 @09:44PM (#31078964)
No one claimed atheists cannot be murderers. But I have yet to learn of an atheist starting a crusade in the name of that god they don't believe in.
Re:Canadians consider certain religions damaging to society:... by forum_ghost on Monday April 18, 2022 @10:56PM (#31079358)
did mao and stalin believe in communism?
Re:Canadians consider certain religions damaging to society:... by TimTheTinker on Monday April 18, 2022 @09:50PM (#31079006)
Nationalist socialist ideology.

It held itself up as the "true" alternative to Christian religion in particular. No need for a God - we can do it all ourselves. Perhaps because it saw Christians who were loyal first to God and then to the state as a threat to its plans for totalitarianism.

Re:Canadians consider certain religions damaging to society:... by JetAlone on Monday April 18, 2022 @10:13PM (#31079148)
In the case of Mao and Stalin? That would be the idol of Ideological purity. It is presented as the one true ideal variant of humanistic utilitarianism, and conveniently because they are the glorious leader through whom it is to be enacted, they are basically the prophet of this god. It is an impersonal god, a "force" or natural economic/social principle whose pseudo-personhood emerges from collective humanity. It uses its adherents to oppress outsiders for resisting. It holds itself together by using its adherents to watch and keep each other in line. It callously punishes insiders to demonstrate that this god doesn't need any of the individual humans it supposedly serves, since they are so much like animals in the first place.

Materialist don't get to make a smug escape from the stigma of "killing in the name of god". Anything you place at the top of your value hierarchy is, for all intents and purposes, your god.

It's a little on the cheesy side but I think this clip from They Live illustrates simply the idolatrous place capital can take in our day-to-day lives.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L8WttFoF3Og

Re:Canadians consider certain religions damaging to society:... by nautilius on Monday April 18, 2022 @10:46PM (#31079313)
That's it? That's all your god has to offer? That's all your god is? An ideology? Bureaucrats and formalism? I feel betrayed! To you, god is indistinguishable for from this? How? Now, I am not a religion-apologist, but it seems to me you're selling god short, no?

What about all the metaphysical mumbo-jumbo? Here's Oxford: 1. (in Christianity and other monotheistic religions) the creator and ruler of the universe and source of all moral authority; the supreme being. 2. (in certain other religions) a superhuman being or spirit worshiped as having power over nature or human fortunes; a deity.

Wow! Yeah! Thats's a god! But you're arguing that god is equivalent to formalism and bureaucracy?! Wow, what a disappointment!

Re:Canadians consider certain religions damaging to society:... by JetAlone on Monday April 18, 2022 @11:12PM (#31079432)
I wasn't saying that's what God is. I was saying that is what a person can try to make a god out of.

I agree that bureaucracy and formalism makes for a disappointing god. That's the way the pharisees tended towards practicing.

Re:Canadians consider certain religions damaging to society:... by nautilius on Tuesday April 19, 2022 @09:46AM (#31083014)
See, and that's where you're a dishonest hypocrite (ah, you got me there!) while moving your goalposts by miles. The religious people are all innocent, because those who aren't, aren't true believers and pharisees; but wow does that threshold drop when it comes to atheists (or 'smug materialists'), because now everything is their true god, and they just haven't realized that they really are religious, and are "just as bad as the religious people" (TM) because nothing can exist outside of religion, hallelujah.

You claim you were an atheist once, for a decade? Maybe you mistook being an atheist for being 'edgy' and smug. All it means is that I don't believe in you sky daddy. Never in my life have I talked about atheism except in response to religious people bringing up their religion and trying to explain to me how really I am religious. I just want to be left alone from your superstition, freedom from religion is the only religious freedom.

Re:Canadians consider certain religions damaging to society:... by TimTheTinker on Tuesday April 19, 2022 @02:19PM (#31086803)
What you call "moving the goalposts" here was just OP's starting assumption that everyone is religious in some way (Bob Dylan's "gotta serve somebody" comes to mind) -- an assumption which you disagree with.

It would make for better discussion to call out this assumption and offer arguments against it than to resort to personal attacks.

Re:Canadians consider certain religions damaging to society:... by JetAlone on Wednesday April 20, 2022 @11:22PM (#31105742)
The personal attacks aren't a resort for people like this. It's the thing they advance into these threads to do in the first place.

This is the person who said "Freedom from religion is the only religious freedom", which is something I would expect to hear from a guard at a prison camp whose job is to systematically destroy an inmate's hope, community and individuality outside of basic material desires.

Freedom of religion is freedom to believe or not to believe in any religion or philosophy a person may choose. It is the freedom to express that privately or together, to speak about or practice it openly. It is the freedom to seek meaning, in spite of how you may be looked upon for the journey or its outcome. Without this definition of freedom of religion in place, there can only be the state religion/philosophy and any of the people belonging to systems of belief that the state's adherents subjugate, subvert, or chooses to tolerate for the time being.

Furthermore, it's not a freedom that can just be taken away, even if someone writes a mean comment about it or codifies a law that criminalizes beliefs. It is a freedom embedded in base reality.

I am grateful that I grew up in a world where so many people around me valued this definition of freedom of religion so much. I am grateful for the meanings, symbolism and relationships I have been able to discover on this path. Being a former atheist allows me to cherish them all the more, because I remember what life was like without them.

May God have mercy on everyone in this thread, we are all going to need it. I resolutely believe we are in these sad political times because we have forgotten about God.

Re:Canadians consider certain religions damaging to society:... by rhexs on Monday April 18, 2022 @09:47PM (#31078984)
The state?
Re:Canadians consider certain religions damaging to society:... by nautilius on Monday April 18, 2022 @10:33PM (#31079250)
The state? Buildings and bureaucrats? Now that's a low bar for 'god'. That's it? There isn't more to it? That's what all the fuzz is about?
Re:Canadians consider certain religions damaging to society:... by forum_ghost on Monday April 18, 2022 @10:57PM (#31079360)
why are you so insecure about your atheism?
Re:Canadians consider certain religions damaging to society:... by JetAlone on Tuesday April 19, 2022 @01:34AM (#31079999)
I wouldn't immediately assume it's insecurity. I used to be an atheist for a good decade and a bit. I remember making fun of Christians in high school. You get to be edgy and the Christians start to feel real bad because you're making fun of what is their "silly sky daddy" to you. But the extra fun part is they're conditioned to be nice in response so it's like you get to sit on a tall branch and drop things on their head and you don't have to take so much flak from them. And if they do act out, you can call them a hypocrite and insult their faith because it clearly doesn't work. It feels like a fun game you can't lose, until one day things get too real and you discover in horror what you'd been doing.
Re:Canadians consider certain religions damaging to society:... by nautilius on Tuesday April 19, 2022 @09:28AM (#31082779)
I don't even understand how one could, even theoretically, be insecure about atheism. It would be great to believe in the 'big sky daddy', as someone else calls them here, it would make lives much easier if you don't have to think and worry for yourself. Alas, I wasn't indoctrinated form an early age.

What pisses me off in this discussion here is that you guys aren't able to have this discussion without either lying or goalpost moving. It is completely incomprehensible to you that something outside of your tiny believe bubble exists. Smug remarks about the 'smug materialists' show how insecure you guys are, then proving that atheists really only also are religious, but still need to be enlightened from you guys. Salvation!

Re:Canadians consider certain religions damaging to society:... by forum_ghost on Wednesday April 20, 2022 @07:09PM (#31104228)
What discussion? Canada doesn't like freedom of thought, and likes to police thoughts? That's not newsworthy, it is an irrelevant backwater country with no substance of it's own.

What's even a Canadian? a deeply religious Hutterite in Alberta? An Inuit with their own tribal/folk religion? An atheist in coastal British Columbia or metropolitan Ontario? Catholic Quebecker? A somewhat religious Hindu immigrant? religious for appearances only Middle Eastern immigrant? a Scottish Druid?

Canada is just a hotel, with really bad weather.

As for "discussions", at the very core, belief is freedom of thought.

If one can no longer have whatever wacky beliefs anything from cargo cults to ufo religions, anything really - now we are getting into thought policing. However, Canadians appears to think policing thought is not damaging to society, who would've expected a hotel of a country with no culture of its own and history of mere 300-400 years to have any other opinion? It is profoundly important to have freedom of belief, conscience and thought. As long as others doesn't infringe on my freedoms, they can believe whatever nonsense.

To think that institutions that supported humanity for thousands of years, helped us survive until today, through all sorts of disasters, difficulties and strife, are all of a sudden damaging to society? Only a lunatic could believe this.

The better question would be to ask why is there a global resurgence in religion? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desecularization

P.S. I'm not sure why you assume everyone you are talking to online is Christian? Religions vary wildly, and all have very different values. Some don't even have concepts of "salvation" or enlightenment. in others, even some similar concepts might exist - even your personal existence and well being is actually of little to no concern in some creeds, as they are inward oriented.

Re:Canadians consider certain religions damaging to society:... by jleyank on Monday April 18, 2022 @10:20PM (#31079184)
$RELIGIONS have the group, they state AND the $GOD get people motivated. They can promise the hereafter.
Re:Canadians consider certain religions damaging to society:... by JetAlone on Monday April 18, 2022 @10:46PM (#31079311)
The hereafter...

I think even without believing in an afterlife in your religion, you can believe some idea or value transcends your own death. For example a person could say "I am okay with dying young in an atrocious urban conflict if it means that in the future we can start a socialist regime where everyone has food, health care and shelter provided by the state as it should have been for my family."

It's not a promise of an afterlife, but it is a promise for something good existing after your life because of your willingness to take on death. And in that way, an ideology can inhabit tons of the psychological territory that religion often does.

Re:Canadians consider certain religions damaging to society:... by smt88 on Tuesday April 19, 2022 @12:17AM (#31079709)
Mao and Stalin didn't kill for religious reasons.