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Re:Wealthiest Americans pay just 3.4% of income in taxes, in... by missedthecue on Thursday April 14, 2022 @03:36PM (#31032209)
FWIW, the only way Pro Publica could derive the 3.4% figure was by pretending that the value of a stock going up is income, and then dividing the amount of tax paid by that amount.

Warren Buffett is worth $100B. So if Berkshire Hathaway stock went up 10% in 2022, they'd say Warren Buffett made $10 billion in income, even if he didn't sell a single share.

Obviously extremely misleading and if I were more cynical, I'd accuse them of doing this only to push a political narrative or agenda rather than to report the facts as they are.

Re:Wealthiest Americans pay just 3.4% of income in taxes, in... by lhorie on Thursday April 14, 2022 @04:13PM (#31032663)
Reading the article, it says that the figures are looking at actual income, not changes in asset prices. It says the low figures come from a) lower tax rates from realized capital gain and b) deductions through charitable donations.

Capital gains in the US are taxed at a maximum rate of 20%[0] for long term holdings, vs income tax rates, which can go up to 37%.

Donations are also something that anyone can use to lower their own taxes, it's line 40 of the 1040 form.

So one can easily change the title to claim that the super wealthy donate more, but I suspect that's not as much of an eye-grabber of a headline.

There may be something to be said about donating to your own non-profits, but that's not what this article is about.

[0] https://www.nerdwallet.com/article/taxes/capital-gains-tax-r...

Re:Wealthiest Americans pay just 3.4% of income in taxes, in... by marcusverus on Thursday April 14, 2022 @04:47PM (#31033061)
> Reading the article, it says that the figures are looking at actual income, not changes in asset prices.

They used actual income... but not for the 3.4% figure that's in the headline. When using actual income (i.e. personal income and cap gains) to calculate tax rate, they ProPublica article said:

> Collectively, the top 400 paid an average tax rate of 22% from 2013 to 2018.

So... where did they get the 3.4% figure that's in the headline? By including unrealized cap gains:

> Then they pay very little in tax when it’s measured against their growing wealth. The top 25 wealthiest Americans got $401 billion richer from 2014 to 2018, but paid just $13.6 billion in federal income taxes, a “true tax rate,” as we called it, of 3.4%.

What's a "true tax rate?", you ask?

> To capture the financial reality of the richest Americans, ProPublica undertook an analysis that has never been done before. We compared how much in taxes the 25 richest Americans paid each year to how much Forbes estimated their wealth grew in that same time period. We’re going to call this their true tax rate.

In other words, ProPublica invented the term 'true tax rate' to represent a fake tax rate that treats unrealized cap gains as income. The Guardian then wrote a headline that conflates the fake tax rate with the real tax rate.

Whenever you find yourself believing something that's not true, be sure to take a hard look at the source who mislead you. You'll find that it was rarely by mistake.

Re:Wealthiest Americans pay just 3.4% of income in taxes, in... by lhorie on Thursday April 14, 2022 @06:08PM (#31033937)
Interesting. I hadn't read the Propublica article (frankly the parallax BS was annoying as hell) and I was going by the 4.1% figure for Michael Bloomberg in the linked article, which for all intents and purposes is close enough of a tax rate.

But yeah "We’re going to call this their true tax rate" is amateur hour. Who even allowed this crap to be published?

Re:Wealthiest Americans pay just 3.4% of income in taxes, in... by whakim on Thursday April 14, 2022 @06:56PM (#31034489)
Putting aside the way these figures are calculated (addressed in sibling comments), I'm always surprised at the lack of interrogation of the charitable contribution deduction in these conversations. The way that the tax code is currently structured, everyone who doesn't itemize their deductions effectively subsidizes the charitable preferences of the ultra-wealthy. If we wanted to promote charitable giving in a more equitable manner, why not simply eliminate the charitable deduction entirely and then use all the extra revenue to give each individual a "charity voucher" which they could donate to a charitable organization of their choosing?
Re:Wealthiest Americans pay just 3.4% of income in taxes, in... by uberman on Thursday April 14, 2022 @04:38PM (#31032963)
"Donations are also something that anyone can use to lower their own taxes"

This is false. It used to be less false, but now is mostly false.

In order to get any tax advantage from donations, you must itemize as all hyper rich do. Full stop. If you take the standard deduction as almost everyone else does (more than 90 %) then you get nothing for your charitable giving.

Note that when the hyper rich do give and get credit it is very often not to organizations that are very "charitable" at all. If you don't believe this to be true simply look up what a how "private foundations" and particularly "donor advised funds" work.

Re:Wealthiest Americans pay just 3.4% of income in taxes, in... by monoprotic on Thursday April 14, 2022 @04:48PM (#31033077)
You're entitled to a deduction of up to $300 (or $600 if married and filing jointly) for charitable donations even if you take the standard deduction.
Re:Wealthiest Americans pay just 3.4% of income in taxes, in... by bcb1276 on Thursday April 14, 2022 @04:59PM (#31033224)
I believe the comment is referring to the part of the report which explains the 3.4% figure is based on taxes paid relative to net worth growth. Specifically, it says :

“As we showed last year, the richest avoid income when they can. Then they pay very little in tax when it’s measured against their growing wealth. The top 25 wealthiest Americans got $401 billion richer from 2014 to 2018, but paid just $13.6 billion in federal income taxes, a “true tax rate,” as we called it, of 3.4%.”

Re:Wealthiest Americans pay just 3.4% of income in taxes, in... by weezin on Thursday April 14, 2022 @09:02PM (#31035542)
Can someone explain the charitable donations deduction thing? I get the art appraisal example of getting it appraised more than its worth and getting a deduction for it. But assuming a person isn't doing that, how are charitable deductions even worth noting? Should you have to pay taxes for donating to charity? Am I missing some way of making money off donating?
Re:Wealthiest Americans pay just 3.4% of income in taxes, in... by missedthecue on Thursday April 14, 2022 @04:48PM (#31033074)
This is what the article says

"Collectively, the top 400 paid an average tax rate of 22% from 2013 to 2018."

"The top 25 wealthiest Americans got $401 billion richer from 2014 to 2018, but paid just $13.6 billion in federal income taxes, a “true tax rate,” as we called it, of 3.4%"

Re:Wealthiest Americans pay just 3.4% of income in taxes, in... by lumost on Thursday April 14, 2022 @04:31PM (#31032878)
There is also tax loss harvesting, paying yourself via loans against assets, and using LLCs to purchase items like houses etc. to avoid taxation.

It doesn't surprise me that billionaires pay substantially lower rates than long-term capital gains would imply they should.

Re:Wealthiest Americans pay just 3.4% of income in taxes, in... by arrakis2021 on Thursday April 14, 2022 @03:58PM (#31032469)
This is irresponsible reporting at best, and manipulation at worst.
Re:Wealthiest Americans pay just 3.4% of income in taxes, in... by fatnoah on Thursday April 14, 2022 @04:07PM (#31032574)
Later, the article makes this statement:

> Billionaires in tech pay the lowest tax rate, an average of 17% of their income

That seems to be > 3.4%

Re:Wealthiest Americans pay just 3.4% of income in taxes, in... by closeparen on Thursday April 14, 2022 @10:40PM (#31036132)
If your endpoint for inequality is “X% of people have Y% of wealth” and you also want to talk about income, then the income you talk about had better be “change in wealth.” Otherwise we get all kinds of intellectually dishonest equivocation about how to deal with the problem of billionaires, we need to tax the shit out of doctors and engineers. The incomes behind our staggering wealth inequality aren’t wage incomes!

If on the other hand you think unrealized gains aren’t important, then you should be thinking of inequality in terms of something else, like consumption. But consumption inequality is both much smaller absolutely and much slower growing than wealth inequality; it doesn’t make a good political rallying point.

Re:Wealthiest Americans pay just 3.4% of income in taxes, in... by slater on Thursday April 14, 2022 @03:40PM (#31032263)
So, what do you propose to make them pay their fair share?
Re:Wealthiest Americans pay just 3.4% of income in taxes, in... by prasadjoglekar on Thursday April 14, 2022 @04:04PM (#31032543)
Sibling comments hit the nail on the head with "fair share".

Here's a video from 2013, that outlines exactly how much tax Warren Buffet is paying. You can disagree with Schiff on his other ideas, but this particular analysis is spot on.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyv9uOozi7g

Re:Wealthiest Americans pay just 3.4% of income in taxes, in... by rubyist5eva on Thursday April 14, 2022 @04:02PM (#31032518)
What is their fair share?
Re:Wealthiest Americans pay just 3.4% of income in taxes, in... by specialist on Thursday April 14, 2022 @04:59PM (#31033222)
Whatever amount (or rate) required to restore the USA's 1970s era gini coefficient of ~36.
Re:Wealthiest Americans pay just 3.4% of income in taxes, in... by AnimalMuppet on Thursday April 14, 2022 @03:47PM (#31032353)
Their fair share of what? Income that they haven't actually received?
Re:Wealthiest Americans pay just 3.4% of income in taxes, in... by plainnoodles on Thursday April 14, 2022 @04:11PM (#31032641)
I think it's reasonably fair to point out that, sure, while these people don't have the extra wealth as income, they did indeed grow wealthier, and significantly so. And generally we tax when things make money.

A couple points about common rebuttals:

"It's not liquid so it's hard for them to pay taxes on it" - we already tax illiquid things like property taxes and when people get income that's not cash, like having debt forgiven or being given a gift of stocks. And people who have debt forgiven or are given stocks as income frequently aren't as likely to have cash to simply pay the taxes when compared to these extremely wealthy owners of capital.

"it might go back down and then they paid taxes on something they couldn't realize" - this applies to property taxes too, fwiw. But also, we deal with similar issues already - if you sell a stock at a loss, you can use it to reduce your taxable income. There's workarounds here if we are at all willing to attempt to tackle this.

And it's worth noting that, sure, this might be taxed when they do eventually sell, but:

1. there is not always a when. You can do lots of interesting things with assets like this, such as borrow against them.

2. money now is worth more than money later. Letting people defer paying taxes on unrealized capital gains is VERY generous tax treatment.

It's also worth noting that this doesn't have to make life hard for John Smith, Dirt Farmer, who owns $5000 of SPY. Just do what we do for other common scenarios like this - for instance, not having to pay capital gains tax on your first $X of cap gains for your primary residence.

Re:Wealthiest Americans pay just 3.4% of income in taxes, in... by AnimalMuppet on Thursday April 14, 2022 @04:50PM (#31033096)
What this does to John Smith, Dirt Farmer, is that his land went up $500/acre, and he's got 1000 acres, and now he's got an "income" of $500,000 this year, which he can't actually get until he sells the land, which he doesn't want to do until he retires. So the options are:

- He sells some of the land to pay the taxes.

- He takes out a loan to pay the taxes.

- We make a special carve-out for people in that situation so that the tax doesn't apply to them.

The third solution seems kind of fake to me. "We don't like the results of this set of rules, so we're going to make exceptions for all the results that we don't like." Maybe it's telling us that the rules aren't all that great?

> money now is worth more than money later. Letting people defer paying taxes on unrealized capital gains is VERY generous tax treatment.

They don't have the money yet. Charging them tax on money they haven't even received yet seems like very ungenerous tax treatment - abusive, even. It only makes sense if you have already defined unrealized capital gains to be income - but that's begging the question.

Re:Wealthiest Americans pay just 3.4% of income in taxes, in... by nautilius on Thursday April 14, 2022 @05:36PM (#31033622)
> - We make a special carve-out for people in that situation so that the tax doesn't apply to them.

Tax law does that all the time. Maybe you've heard of tax brackets. It's so that people who earn less pay a smaller tax rate. I don't see the trouble with that. It's applied in the other direction as well, e.g. with a maximum dollar value with medicare.

Re:Wealthiest Americans pay just 3.4% of income in taxes, in... by JumpCrisscross on Thursday April 14, 2022 @07:47PM (#31034970)
Zero chance a wealth tax goes into effect in America without excluding farmland. That or the Electoral College does.
Re:Wealthiest Americans pay just 3.4% of income in taxes, in... by nautilius on Thursday April 14, 2022 @08:56PM (#31035491)
Oh, I'm not talking legislative probability. I was responding to the comment that it's somehow an unfathomable thought to have different 'carve outs' for different people in tax law (or anywhere, really) when that is standard practice in reality already.
Re:Wealthiest Americans pay just 3.4% of income in taxes, in... by silksowed on Thursday April 14, 2022 @04:56PM (#31033183)
big fan of this idea. I would be more sympathetic to not tax increase of stock values if it was not the largest driver of increased wealth. W-2 for the ultra wealthy is such a small chunk of their net worth's. houses and stock portfolio's are both assets, why is one taxed and the other not
Re:Wealthiest Americans pay just 3.4% of income in taxes, in... by fatnoah on Thursday April 14, 2022 @04:14PM (#31032681)
I assume those to propose to tax unrealized gains are also going to allow deductions or refunds for unrealized losses, too. Right?
Re:Wealthiest Americans pay just 3.4% of income in taxes, in... by missedthecue on Thursday April 14, 2022 @04:49PM (#31033087)
The top 1% of earners make 20% of the income but pay 40% of federal income taxes. Can you tell me why that's not fair?
Re:Wealthiest Americans pay just 3.4% of income in taxes, in... by magicalist on Thursday April 14, 2022 @04:58PM (#31033216)
The utility of a dollar is not constant.
Re:Wealthiest Americans pay just 3.4% of income in taxes, in... by missedthecue on Thursday April 14, 2022 @05:56PM (#31033808)
Great. What's fair?
Re:Wealthiest Americans pay just 3.4% of income in taxes, in... by hedora on Thursday April 14, 2022 @04:58PM (#31033214)
The issue isn't with the top 1%. It's the top 0.01%, which make a big chunk of that 20% and pay almost nothing in tax.