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Re:An Account of the Shanghai Lockdown by threatripper on Saturday April 09, 2022 @06:33AM (#30966802)
Hong Kong had the highest death rate per capita globally in the last weeks when their containment policy failed. Leading to a mortality of over 0.1% in a short time. Hong Kong is a very rich area. Many other areas would fare much worse.

The rest of the world is not "all-in" with vaccines. Vaccines are combined with waves of infection for the unvaccinated and vaccinated which lead to the death of 0.1% to 0.6% of the population in many countries. With each infection the immunity rises - leading to less severe infections in the future. The deaths are a high price to pay but many people think it's worth it to have a somewhat normal life again.

As we know now, China was not very wise with their choice of vaccine and seemingly has no exit plan. Omicron is spreading very fast and due to a low prior immunity it would put an immense load on their medical system for months.

Here's the link to an interactive graph showing the death rate per capita: https://ourworldindata.org/explorers/coronavirus-data-explor...

Re:An Account of the Shanghai Lockdown by csee on Saturday April 09, 2022 @07:06AM (#30966990)
Only because HK's elderly are not widely vaccinated, and also because Sinovac makes up about half of their vaccinations and this vaccine is not as good at preventing mortality. A very similar situation to Mainland China, actually.

So the question still hasn't been answered. Why is Mainland China insisting on pursuing this inferior strategy? The hard-lockdown zero-Covid low-vaccination approach has been shown to be inferior to the alternative approach of ensuring 99% of the elderly are vaccinated with Pfizer or Moderna, and then allowing society to open up once this is achieved. My understanding is their vaccination rates haven't gone up much since this outbreak started, which signals that they are not intent on changing course.

Re:An Account of the Shanghai Lockdown by Laforet on Saturday April 09, 2022 @07:58AM (#30967260)
The imcumbent cabinet and politburo are going out of term later this year and a new list of names needs to be appointed and rubber stamped by the upcoming 20th CCP National Congress. The government essentially operate in caretaker mode for several months before the congress and any major policy reversal would be taboo as it could disrupt the political horse trading happening in the background. This is just not the time for course change.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/20th_National_Congress_of_the_...

Ironically, a very similar situation played out in Wuhan . By mid December 2019 it was very clear that a deadly respiratory disease is in the community but the politicians were too preoccupied with the ongoing provincial party congress. Nobody in power was willing to take a bullet for announcing a pandemic until their posts are confirmed and secure. The rest is history.

Re:An Account of the Shanghai Lockdown by threatripper on Saturday April 09, 2022 @08:15AM (#30967372)
It says that the congress is in the second half of 2022. That's still months into the future. With Omicron it could be some "interesting times" in those months. Until when does the situation need to appear under control? When could they announce a change of course?
Re:An Account of the Shanghai Lockdown by Laforet on Saturday April 09, 2022 @08:23AM (#30967425)
>Until when does the situation need to appear under control?

Barring major catastrophe, thing will continue to drift in the current direction until the Congress is "concluded in triumph" and the new government sworn in. So probably no sooner than October/November.

Re:An Account of the Shanghai Lockdown by csee on Saturday April 09, 2022 @08:26AM (#30967443)
Why can't they just clandestinely ramp up their elderly vaccination efforts? No face will be lost.
Re:An Account of the Shanghai Lockdown by Laforet on Saturday April 09, 2022 @08:59AM (#30967669)
They are already doing that and it will take some time. However no vaccine is 100% effective against mortality. Bear in mind that China had almost no covid deaths post-2020. Any covid death now is considered a failure as it would have been "preventable" under a strictly zero covid policy.

This is why the figures out of China is looking too good to be true right now with 150K+ recent cases, very low intensive care admission and only 2 deaths so far(both had very serious underlying conditions including end stage renal failure and cerebral infarction). One might argue that the officials have an incentive to hide the true figures to save face, but keeping the numbers low does not necessarily make them look any better as the lockdown appears overly harsh and disproportionate to the risks. The only options is to try and return to the zero covid days, no plan B allowed.

Re:An Account of the Shanghai Lockdown by csee on Saturday April 09, 2022 @09:23AM (#30967858)
> They are already doing that and it will take some time.

Really? The data I've seen (googling and on social media) suggest that there is no change in the vaccination rate.

Re:An Account of the Shanghai Lockdown by Laforet on Saturday April 09, 2022 @10:21AM (#30968292)
MoH data is a bit sparse on detail but still mentions 300K+ doses of vaccine administered daily.

http://www.nhc.gov.cn/xcs/yqjzqk/list_gzbd.shtml

The economist has some aged grouped vaccination data from the end of March that actually shows pretty good vaccine coverage for the 60-79 age group. I couldn't find a source but the numbers are consistent with a prior press release.

https://www.economist.com/china/2022/04/02/why-so-many-elder...

http://news.china.com.cn/2022-03/25/content_78130625.html

Re:An Account of the Shanghai Lockdown by Reason077 on Saturday April 09, 2022 @07:18AM (#30967062)
> "Hong Kong is a very rich area. Many other areas would fare much worse."

Being rich or poor doesn't have too much to do with it. Hong Kong is badly affected because it has a very high population density combined with low vaccination rates.

Re:An Account of the Shanghai Lockdown by tenpies on Saturday April 09, 2022 @07:27AM (#30967098)
Wealth did have a very strong effect, just not the one we usually see.

Poorer countries faired better against the disease itself: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/total-confirmed-deaths-of...

And it's not population density either, otherwise Bangladesh and India would be leading the packs in deaths, but they're comfortably in the middle while much of Europe pushes the top.

Where this falls apart is in government reaction to the disease, that has absolutely eviscerated the middle and poor classes.

Re:An Account of the Shanghai Lockdown by Reason077 on Saturday April 09, 2022 @07:39AM (#30967159)
Despite having high overall population densities and some dense cities, India and Bangladesh are still largely (60-80%) rural populations. Totally different to Hong Kong where the population is >99% urban, living in cramped and often poorly-ventilated apartment towers.
Re:An Account of the Shanghai Lockdown by fauigerzigerk on Saturday April 09, 2022 @08:38AM (#30967535)
I think the very different age distribution explains a lot of that
Re:An Account of the Shanghai Lockdown by geokon on Saturday April 09, 2022 @07:01AM (#30966958)
What do you feel the "choice" with vaccines was? So even if they overlooked the politics/"optics", I don't think they could go to the Western pharmaceutical companies and just ask for 3 billion doses. With boosters it's looking like there isn't enough vaccine capacity for the world as it is. I don't think there was ever a real alternative other than a "zero covid strategy"

What seems strange is that they haven't been able to quickly make an mRNA vaccine of their own. Supposedly South Africa has managed to pull it off, and I'd guess China has a much more advanced research/production capacity. Though it's also very possible it's happening and I just haven't heard of it :)

Re:An Account of the Shanghai Lockdown by nicoburns on Saturday April 09, 2022 @07:17AM (#30967055)
> I don't think they could go to the Western pharmaceutical companies and just ask for 3 billion doses.

I wonder if they could license the technology then produce it themselves. I believe this is what India has been doing?

Re:An Account of the Shanghai Lockdown by marcosdumay on Saturday April 09, 2022 @12:03PM (#30969186)
Nobody would blink an eye if they just used the technology without licensing either. It's not like other countries could stop them.
Re:An Account of the Shanghai Lockdown by ericmay on Saturday April 09, 2022 @08:33AM (#30967495)
This user in the comment above mentions that China blocked it:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30967224

Which makes sense for the CCP. If everyone gets the western vaccine then it makes the CCP look bad.

Re:An Account of the Shanghai Lockdown by threatripper on Saturday April 09, 2022 @07:09AM (#30967008)
> I don't think they could go to the Western pharmaceutical companies and just ask for 3 billion doses.

Ramping up production was a problem in the beginning but now it should not be a problem to produce enough shots to supply China. Even a single shot mRNA would improve immunity by a lot when combined with other vaccines. If China had ordered it in 2020 they would have received multiple doses per person by now.

I have no idea why mRNA failed in China.

Re:An Account of the Shanghai Lockdown by Reason077 on Saturday April 09, 2022 @07:20AM (#30967066)
> "I have no idea why mRNA failed in China."

Classic case of "not invented here" syndrome?

Re:An Account of the Shanghai Lockdown by threatripper on Saturday April 09, 2022 @07:38AM (#30967141)
That surely played a part. But by now there would have been enough time to admit defeat and just order some from Europe.
Re:An Account of the Shanghai Lockdown by dismalpedigree on Saturday April 09, 2022 @07:51AM (#30967212)
You do realize you are talking about CCP admitting defeat? Should be obvious why it hasn’t happened.
Re:An Account of the Shanghai Lockdown by maxerickson on Saturday April 09, 2022 @07:54AM (#30967224)
Pfizer/BioNTech licensed their vaccine to a Chinese pharmaceutical manufacturer, the government didn't approve it:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-12-12/billionai...

That's not quite what you describe, but they could have poured resources into manufacturing the licensed vaccine instead of outright blocking its use.

Re:An Account of the Shanghai Lockdown by ArchD on Saturday April 09, 2022 @06:58AM (#30966941)
61% of the deaths are of the elderly (> 70 yo) unvaccinated. 69% of the deaths are of the elderly (> 70 yo) with 0 or 1 vaccination doses. https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/71/wr/mm7115e1.htm Table 2

The numbers you listed may seem scary at face value but viewed in the right context including compared to other mortality risks like flu and inhumane lockdown conditions where some people run out of food and other basic supplies or turn suicidal, the numbers do not support the conclusion that lockdown is the best way forward.

Re:An Account of the Shanghai Lockdown by threatripper on Saturday April 09, 2022 @07:14AM (#30967031)
I don't say that lockdown is the best way when viewed in the rear mirror. But right now it's just a logical continuation of the policy they enacted in the past.