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Re:Language of fungi derived from their electrical spiking a... by colechristensen on Wednesday April 06, 2022 @02:06PM (#30935463)
People tend to underestimate the ability of very simple systems to result in complex behavior. It is entirely possible that this ant hijacking is entirely done though a few very simple manipulations of the existing ant nervous system and more likely than a much more complex fungal brain replacement.
Re:Language of fungi derived from their electrical spiking a... by xg15 on Wednesday April 06, 2022 @05:36PM (#30937701)
> It is entirely possible that this ant hijacking is entirely done though a few very simple manipulations of the existing ant nervous system

Hasn't that been ruled out by now though?

(Content warning: Zombie ant fungus details)

I read articles about that fungus and I believe for a long time it was assumed that the fungus rewires something inside the ant's brain that makes it want to climb to the top of a grass blade etc. - so it would "only" manipulate the high-level goals of the ant but not control the more complex and dynamic low-level operations (such as walking or navigating) directly.

However, a few months ago there was a paper about more detailed research on the molecular mechanisms the fungus uses for the takeover. Turns out, the former hypothesis was wrong and in fact it does control the ant's arms/legs directly. If that's true, then the fungus itself must somehow actively steer the ant towards the grass.

Re:Language of fungi derived from their electrical spiking a... by trenchgun on Wednesday April 06, 2022 @05:40PM (#30937761)
Link please?
Re:Language of fungi derived from their electrical spiking a... by xg15 on Wednesday April 06, 2022 @05:51PM (#30937901)
This is the article I got the info from: http://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2017/11/how-the-z...

This seems to be the referenced paper: https://www.pnas.org/doi/full/10.1073/pnas.1711673114

I was wrong about it being from a few months ago though. It was released in 2017 already.

Re:Language of fungi derived from their electrical spiking a... by mrtnmcc on Wednesday April 06, 2022 @07:36PM (#30938800)
It's unclear from that source that the complex fungal network in the ant is in any way important for controlling ant behavior. It's only speculated.
Re:Language of fungi derived from their electrical spiking a... by yosito on Wednesday April 06, 2022 @02:28PM (#30935717)
> It is entirely possible that this ant hijacking is entirely done though a few very simple manipulations

It is entirely possible that human motivations and reasoning are driven by similarly simple mechanisms. The best example I can think of is how much of an asshole I can be to my family when I'm hangry.

Re:Language of fungi derived from their electrical spiking a... by throwawaycities on Thursday April 07, 2022 @12:10AM (#30940521)
> The best example I can think of is how much of an asshole I can be to my family when I'm hangry.

Where it gets interesting is it might not even be “you” that is hungry, rather it’s the collective microbiome that sends signals from your gut to your brain telling it to eat for their benefit.

Re:Language of fungi derived from their electrical spiking a... by colechristensen on Wednesday April 06, 2022 @03:50PM (#30936700)
The complex conscious and unconscious behavior can indeed be manipulated by quite simple things (hunger, stimulants, alcohol) but the complexity does not come from the lever that made the change, it's just pushing levers all over the place of your existing feedback cycles which results in much different outcomes.
Re:Language of fungi derived from their electrical spiking a... by hypertele-Xii on Wednesday April 06, 2022 @02:47PM (#30935947)
Don't know if you did that on purpose, but "hangry" is such a beautiful word.
Re:Language of fungi derived from their electrical spiking a... by bdamm on Wednesday April 06, 2022 @03:08PM (#30936243)
"Hangry" is now a widespread term. It's even in Merriam-Webster: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/hangry
Re:Language of fungi derived from their electrical spiking a... by rhn_mk1 on Wednesday April 06, 2022 @02:23PM (#30935678)
Could we be underestimating the ability of very simple systems to result in consciousness?
Re:Language of fungi derived from their electrical spiking a... by colechristensen on Wednesday April 06, 2022 @03:48PM (#30936674)
No.

I don't think the logistic map is conscious, but it is very complex. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logistic_map

What I'm talking about re: ants is a few chemical signals specifically targeting ant behaviors resulting in the infected behavior. I don't think the fungus is any more conscious than a handful of pills.

Re:Language of fungi derived from their electrical spiking a... by rhn_mk1 on Thursday April 07, 2022 @04:05AM (#30941908)
You seem to know more about what consciousness is than you're letting on.
Re:Language of fungi derived from their electrical spiking a... by journey_16162 on Thursday April 07, 2022 @05:49PM (#30950746)
Something like in Toxoplasmosa. It's just a random product of evolution, nothing computational.

> The life cycle of the parasite Toxoplasma gondii goes like this: Toxoplasma reproduces inside the intestine of a cat, which sheds the parasite in its feces. Rats then ingest the parasite when they consume food or water contaminated with cat feces. The parasite takes up residence in the rat’s brain and, once the rat gets eaten by a cat, it starts the cycle all over again. > Researchers have known for a few years that a rat infected with Toxoplasma loses its natural response to cat urine and no longer fears the smell. And they know that the parasite settles in the rat’s amygdala, the part of the brain that processes fear and emotions. https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/the-parasite-t...

Re:Language of fungi derived from their electrical spiking a... by mrtnmcc on Wednesday April 06, 2022 @07:32PM (#30938771)
I always figured it made the ant feel it is about to drown, so it seeks high ground instinctively.
Re:Language of fungi derived from their electrical spiking a... by th3o6a1d on Thursday April 07, 2022 @12:00PM (#30946320)
Agree with above statement. Occam's razor. Tons of examples of complex behavioral changes centered around exposure to single substance.

THC --> munchies! Alcohol --> saying dumb things at parties.

I'll bet there is a fungal chemical that disrupts the ant's spacial orientation, and absent of other stimuli, it may have a default program that causes it to seek higher ground.

Re:Language of fungi derived from their electrical spiking a... by itissid on Wednesday April 06, 2022 @11:33PM (#30940352)