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Re:Amazon worker chat app to ban words such as “union”, “pay... by mouzogu on Tuesday April 05, 2022 @02:51AM (#30916037)
"How we live is so different from how we ought to live that he who studies what ought to be done rather than what is done will learn the way to his downfall rather than to his preservation." Machievelli

Most people are selfish and act in their own self interest despite what virtue signaling on social media they may do.

You really think people are willing to risk their 6 figure salaries for some anonymous warehouse workers...

Re:Amazon worker chat app to ban words such as “union”, “pay... by krageon on Tuesday April 05, 2022 @03:17AM (#30916177)
Your argument is that people are not lazy or ethically incompetent, but rather just straight up evil. Is that a fair characterisation? If so, I don't find it compelling.
Re:Amazon worker chat app to ban words such as “union”, “pay... by heavyset_go on Tuesday April 05, 2022 @03:42AM (#30916312)
This is Hannah Arendt's thesis behind "the banality of evil"[1]:

> Arendt found Eichmann an ordinary, rather bland, bureaucrat, who in her words, was ‘neither perverted nor sadistic’, but ‘terrifyingly normal’. He acted without any motive other than to diligently advance his career. Eichmann was not an amoral monster, she concluded in her study of the case. Instead, he performed evil deeds without evil intentions, a fact connected to his ‘thoughtlessness’, a disengagement from the reality of his evil acts. Eichmann ‘never realised what he was doing’ due to an ‘inability… to think from the standpoint of somebody else’. Lacking this particular cognitive ability, he ‘commit[ted] crimes under circumstances that made it well-nigh impossible for him to know or to feel that he [was] doing wrong’.

> Arendt dubbed these collective characteristics of Eichmann ‘the banality of evil’: he was not inherently evil, but merely shallow and clueless, a ‘joiner’, in the words of one contemporary interpreter of Arendt’s thesis: he was a man who drifted, in search of purpose and direction, not out of deep ideological belief.

[1] https://www.britannica.com/story/what-did-hannah-arendt-real...

Re:Amazon worker chat app to ban words such as “union”, “pay... by mekkkkkk on Tuesday April 05, 2022 @05:30AM (#30916956)
Sometimes it feels like people are confused about the nature of themselves. We have this idealized version of ethics and rationality that maps poorly onto reality. Yet everybody (especially on social media) talks as if this idealized version is the obvious natural state of all humans.

Our intellect as a species is a blessing and a curse. We are self aware, but only to a certain extent. The blanks are filled in by wishful thinking and hopelessly logical rationalizations.

It's fine and serves its purpose well as something to strive for. But it significantly hampers our ability to understand and empathize toward those that for whatever reason goes against the ideal.

Re:Amazon worker chat app to ban words such as “union”, “pay... by southerntofu on Tuesday April 05, 2022 @06:43AM (#30917362)
> We have this idealized version of ethics and rationality that maps poorly onto reality. Yet everybody (especially on social media) talks as if this idealized version is the obvious natural state of all humans.

So i'm not sure how much of it is "natural" or "cultural", but as others have pointed out the vast majority of people are happy to cooperate and help one another... it's not an abstract ideal.

On the other hand, since we were kids starting at school, and across the media spectrum, we've been taught to crush others to move forward. That part is definitely not natural but cultural. If that's the "reality" you're talking about, we can do a great deal about it!

Re:Amazon worker chat app to ban words such as “union”, “pay... by mekkkkkk on Tuesday April 05, 2022 @07:45AM (#30917764)
I'm more talking about opinions framed as "how could anyone do that" or arguments beginning with "I would never".

A good example is malicious actions by companies. You could probably follow the entire decision tree in a lot of cases and not find a single individual that was acting differently than the average person would in those same circumstances.

Systemic issues are becoming obfuscated because human nature is disregarded in favor of ideals. It's much easier to just nail someone to a cross than to empathize and find real solutions.

Re:Amazon worker chat app to ban words such as “union”, “pay... by hoseja on Tuesday April 05, 2022 @09:30AM (#30918729)
It's the meme that is evil. Human is merely the host and, depending on the sophistication of the meme and lack thereof of the human, perhaps very unwitting.
Re:Amazon worker chat app to ban words such as “union”, “pay... by bigDinosaur on Tuesday April 05, 2022 @05:09AM (#30916837)
I think it's a compelling critique of Arendt that she basically just bought this characterisation wholesale - the Nazis had every reason to present their actions as 'banal' both in limiting the damages selfishly at an individual level and also limiting the damage to their ideology ('anyone could do it'). Eichmann was probably not the nazi-punchcard, mindlessly executing horrible plans, that she states.
Re:Amazon worker chat app to ban words such as “union”, “pay... by toyg on Tuesday April 05, 2022 @06:43AM (#30917361)
The counter to that theory is the sheer amount of Nazi members in Germany - or really rank & file members in any fascist-like regime. That amount of people don't just go insanely evil on a whim, in most cases they are simply dragged there by mechanisms like Arendt describes.
Re:Amazon worker chat app to ban words such as “union”, “pay... by bigDinosaur on Tuesday April 05, 2022 @07:12AM (#30917531)
Arendt was very specific though, her book was called Eichmann in Jerusalem. It wasn't 'mid-level German bureaucrat in Jerusalem'. After all, the railway workers (well, the unforced ones, since the Nazis did not have any compunction about slavery) who kept the trains running were fairly banal participants in the Holocaust, but we don't focus on them as the architects of it for a reason. Eichmann had every reason to present himself as a boring- somewhat clueless - bureaucrat as opposed to an architect of horrors of which he understood the full and gruesome extent. The right person in the wrong place can make all the difference.

I'd have to read her responses to the criticism she got again, I believe she did walk back the extent of her claims, but could be wrong (and in saying this, I'm sure someone will correct me if I am misremembering ;))

Re:Amazon worker chat app to ban words such as “union”, “pay... by toyg on Tuesday April 05, 2022 @07:58AM (#30917884)
Of course, Arendt was a journalist so her work starts from an event. Not every Nazi member was trialled, Eichmann wad just one of the high-profile ones. The point is that from the particular situation we get a more generalised theory of the development of "evil" at the mass level, that works better than "people just like to abuse others, because the devil or something".
Re:Amazon worker chat app to ban words such as “union”, “pay... by bigDinosaur on Tuesday April 05, 2022 @08:08AM (#30917955)
The problem really comes down to this: is Nazism something which we are all capable of quickly becoming, i.e. inherent to human nature, or do we only become this horrible when small groups of intelligent elites cynically exploit our psychology and concretely plan for us to become brainwashed slaves (the opposite of banality)? Perhaps a bit of both, but at some point someone definitely isn't a banal and clueless bureaucrat.

You can probably see how option A is a propaganda win for Nazism (and fascism in general). 'See, you're not so different to us!'. Was it the German people who became Nazis overnight, or did the Nazi elites (such as Eichmann) instigate what amounted to major social engineering campaigns?

Re:Amazon worker chat app to ban words such as “union”, “pay... by toyg on Tuesday April 05, 2022 @09:13AM (#30918529)
The point is that in most cases you don't need any major social-engineering. The elements of efficiency and obedience to the hierarchy are already there, built-in in most orderly societies. You just need to veer the actual aims a little bit, and you are effectively in a regime not very different from the nazi one.

That's why seemingly democratic societies can turn into regimes almost overnight.

Re:Amazon worker chat app to ban words such as “union”, “pay... by bigDinosaur on Tuesday April 05, 2022 @09:22AM (#30918630)
This is discounting all the times people fight back against fascism though. Lots and lots of people absolutely do not accept some natural link between orderly conduct and fascism, and so that goes back to my original point about Eichmann making Nazism seem banal as a goal for the Nazi ideology - if we're basically one step away from becoming Nazis at any point, is what they did really so bad?

Well, yes it was, because it was engineered. The Nazis never won a majority in any election, but once they were in power they were famous for their social engineering and propaganda. They're a classic example of how a minority of people in a population can absolutely gain control over everyone else and bend the majority to their will using highly cynical but intelligent tactics.

Re:Amazon worker chat app to ban words such as “union”, “pay... by toyg on Tuesday April 05, 2022 @10:43AM (#30919667)
> This is discounting all the times people fight back against fascism though.

That's a personal interpretation. In fact, in many ways it doesn't discount it but actually inspires them, asserting that without such efforts society is likely to backslide into fascism fairly easily. Which tbh, if you've lived in the US from 2001 to 2005, or today in Russia or Hungary, you've basically experienced already.

Re:Amazon worker chat app to ban words such as “union”, “pay... by bigDinosaur on Tuesday April 05, 2022 @08:31PM (#30926944)
I think it's correct to say that a lot of people are relatively passive and will eventually go along with whatever a government desires, but the crux of the 'banality of evil' argument was that Nazis at the highest level were also that kind of passive, bureaucratic evil, as opposed to being very explicit and knowledgeable in their plans. The critique of Arendt wasn't that there was no banality of evil, just that it didn't exist at the levels she claimed (Nazi leadership). They knew full well what they were doing. It's important to recognise this since otherwise you might say that the people in power aren't important as they're purely products of societal values etc.
Re:Amazon worker chat app to ban words such as “union”, “pay... by toyg on Wednesday April 06, 2022 @06:15AM (#30930371)
Like in all things, it's important not to end up on the maximalist end of the spectrum. Obviously an individual is not only the result of a certain social conditioning nor only an isolated madman, and that's not Arendt theory; but it's undisputable how even the leaders brought to extreme consequences certain societal instincts that were present. When you compare the qualities of Italian fascist leaders with German ones, for example, you can see the differences: while Italians were focused on heroism and individual excellence (as expoused by D'Annunzio, for example), Germans valued more order in all systems - which is why the holocaust was as effective as it was. That's because the societal views that shaped them were different.

That does not mean that society carries all responsibility for the actions of this or that person, of course, that's never the case. What the banality of evil tells us is that society contains the conceptual germs for behaviour that can turn atrocious, when brought to extreme lengths by this or that individual.

[dead]
Re:Amazon worker chat app to ban words such as “union”, “pay... by TomSwirly on Tuesday April 05, 2022 @04:06AM (#30916443)
Empty comment.
Re:Amazon worker chat app to ban words such as “union”, “pay... by anonymousDan on Tuesday April 05, 2022 @04:04AM (#30916428)
Boring comment
Re:Amazon worker chat app to ban words such as “union”, “pay... by adriand on Tuesday April 05, 2022 @06:36AM (#30917330)
It’s not compelling and it’s not true. In fact most people are inherently good, and enjoy being generous and helpful. Let’s consider this within the context of tech workers specifically. The existence of an enormous open source software community and huge crowd-built resources like Stackoverflow are two examples that demonstrate the willingness of tech workers to contribute, free of charge, to each other and to the world at large.

Or consider your own personal experience with people you have worked with. You may have had colleagues who were incompetent, unintelligent or annoying, but how many of them would you describe as evil? Over twenty years of working in the industry I have only ever encountered one person who I would genuinely describe, not as “evil” per se, but as lacking in certain moral qualities that we tend to take for granted among the people we know (and we take them for granted because most people are good). And he wasn’t a developer!

I believe it is much more likely that people work for Amazon because they either genuinely believe it is a good company (after all, it is lauded by many) and/or because they are ignorant of the nature of what people in socioeconomic classes far below their own are experiencing in Amazon facilities. Just how aware are each of us of the reality on the ground at companies we support? Do you know what it is like to be a worker at every company whose stock you own? What about the companies who make the clothing you wear or the device you’re using to read this?

If not, does that you make evil? Or are you a participant in a system that hides this reality from you?

I’m not saying that owning stock or wearing apparel is the same thing as joining a company, by the way. People should be very discerning about who they work for. But I think there are more plausible and positive reasons for human behaviour than Machiavelli proposed.

Let’s not view each other as evil and thus write off each other and in doing so, our future. Let’s work to change the system instead.

Re:Amazon worker chat app to ban words such as “union”, “pay... by banannaise on Tuesday April 05, 2022 @08:49AM (#30918292)
One of the truly unfortunate things about modern capitalism is that making money and doing good for the world are more or less mutually exclusive. There's little money to be made helping people, and even when you find an exception, it often gets quickly overwhelmed by grift.
Re:Amazon worker chat app to ban words such as “union”, “pay... by Nasrudith on Wednesday April 06, 2022 @03:48PM (#30936677)
Sounds like your definition of good is set far too restrictive to be "also a sacrifice madr without any benefit to themselves" as opposed to just "improving the situation" if you think they are mutually exclusive.

Does the sin of making money wash away the virtue of creating a COVID-19 vaccine?

Re:Amazon worker chat app to ban words such as “union”, “pay... by mouzogu on Tuesday April 05, 2022 @03:35AM (#30916285)
No not evil. My observation is that people are pragmatic (hence, machiavelli and the arguments of moral ethics).

My observation is that why should we expect highly paid tech workers to conform to some higher ideal. They have more to lose.

Re:Amazon worker chat app to ban words such as “union”, “pay... by hef19898 on Tuesday April 05, 2022 @03:40AM (#30916301)
I have to disagree that ehite collar folks at FAANG have more to loose. Blue Collar flks are employed at low salaries in economically weak regions, they loosr their job they risk loosing everything. Especially in the US with a non-existant social safety net. White Collar, especially tech employees, have the option to work for similar salaries somewhere else rather easily.

Other than that, full agreement.

Re:Amazon worker chat app to ban words such as “union”, “pay... by 0des on Tuesday April 05, 2022 @03:27AM (#30916228)
Are you addressing this part of their comment or the previous piece?

> You really think people are willing to risk their 6 figure salaries for some anonymous warehouse workers...

Re:Amazon worker chat app to ban words such as “union”, “pay... by coldtea on Tuesday April 05, 2022 @04:44AM (#30916671)
They are close to "evil" unless trying (often hard) to become otherwise.

Also known as the doctrine of "the original sin".

As opposed to Rousseau's "noble savage".