News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Amazon workers on Staten Island vote to unionize by josephcsible on Friday April 01, 2022 @01:39PM (#30880973)
Once you acknowledge that unions are useless and bad, yes, this is correct. If unions were actually beneficial to workers, then companies would have a very hard time hiring non-union workers.
Re:Amazon workers on Staten Island vote to unionize by beaconstudios on Friday April 01, 2022 @01:54PM (#30881162)
In what way do you believe unions are useless and bad? That's like saying "companies are useless and bad" - some companies may be useless and bad, but you'd need to show an essential reason why the majority must end up that way.

FWIW, I think you're wrong and that unions are good at improving worker conditions and pay, and that's why companies engage in aggressive union-busting and anti-union propaganda to prevent unionisation and broadly keep union membership down.

Re:Amazon workers on Staten Island vote to unionize by josephcsible on Friday April 01, 2022 @02:02PM (#30881294)
Unions are definitely bad for companies, but the fact that companies don't want them doesn't automatically mean that they're good for workers. They're a parasitic drain that's bad for both.

Also, with the sole exception of Japanese bus drivers, every union I know of that's ever gone on strike has, in doing so, used innocent third parties as collateral damage.

Re:Amazon workers on Staten Island vote to unionize by Ekaros on Friday April 01, 2022 @02:36PM (#30881759)
Are the unions once damaging people or is it the companies that do not have sufficient contingencies when their employers take collective action? I don't think it is unreasonable to expect them to take account potential issues with their employees. After all it is a free market and they could source services from somewhere else during these times.
Re:Amazon workers on Staten Island vote to unionize by beaconstudios on Friday April 01, 2022 @02:17PM (#30881516)
You can claim they're a drain on both all you want, but you're just stating an unsubstantiated opinion that flies in the face of reason. Why would anybody join (and stay in) a union if they're unequivocally bad for everyone?

Are strikers holding people hostage? Or are they just refusing to do their jobs?

Re:Amazon workers on Staten Island vote to unionize by jfjfkfmf on Friday April 01, 2022 @02:54PM (#30881946)
If Walmart closes its union store, which it has done, how is that not bad for everyone?
Re:Amazon workers on Staten Island vote to unionize by beaconstudios on Friday April 01, 2022 @03:14PM (#30882173)
That's not unions being bad, that's Walmart being bad.
Re:Amazon workers on Staten Island vote to unionize by Spivak on Friday April 01, 2022 @01:54PM (#30881161)
This makes zero sense, you're drawing huge conclusions based on a prisoner's dilemma situation. Of course it's beneficial to be a defector, you get all the benefit but none of the cost. Once no one is unionized at all or it's so small to not have any pull the benefit disappears.

It's like saying that taxes are useless because given the choice people would opt-out if they could, ignoring the consequences of if everyone did that.

Re:Amazon workers on Staten Island vote to unionize by JoshTriplett on Friday April 01, 2022 @02:31PM (#30881689)
There's a difference between "I don't want to join because I don't want to pay these dues (and I still get all the benefits)" and "I don't want to join because I disagree with them and they don't represent me, and I don't want them to purport to speak for me (and thus I also don't want to pay them to do so)".

The former is indeed a prisoner's dilemma. The latter is a valid complaint and an entirely valid thing to want. And the only answer I've ever seen given is "well then get involved and try to steer it in a direction you care about", with no allowance for people who don't agree with the direction it has taken and don't want to spend their whole career struggling (likely unsuccessfully) to change it.

I think collective bargaining is a powerful and useful tool, that in isolation, more people would likely support. I think it's unfortunate that that tool has lost a lot of its power, in part because it comes along with structures and assumptions that many people do not share.

As one of many examples: people often complain that a union shop values duration of tenure more than experience or skill, and devalues the latter because it's easy to objectively measure duration of tenure. I've seen people say "well, if you form a union, it doesn't have to work that way"; that's always spoken from the point of view of the people who put together or maintain the union. But that doesn't do any good if you weren't involved with the initial setup, and you're just faced with how it currently works. If you push for something else, you're tilting at a very large windmill. And it's valid for someone to say "I'd like to have collective bargaining, but if it's going to do something tenure-based then on balance I'd rather reject it".

The ability to individually choose to join or not isn't just a simple prisoner's dilemma where defecting is a loss; it's also something that gives actual teeth to a requirement to be representative of employees, if an employee believes they'd be better off with no representation other than themselves than they would with the current representation. That would have to be a pretty serious level of failure, if an employee believes that membership has negative value to them.

Conversely, it might also resolve the prisoner's dilemma problem if negotiated benefits were tied to union membership. While some negotiated benefits (e.g. working conditions) are inherently available to everyone, others (e.g. policies, vacation time, pay structure) may be such that they could be offered to those who are a member of the organization that bargained for them.

Re:Amazon workers on Staten Island vote to unionize by josephcsible on Friday April 01, 2022 @01:59PM (#30881247)
How is it a prisoner's dilemma? Why would a union give its benefits to someone who didn't join?
Re:Amazon workers on Staten Island vote to unionize by Spivak on Friday April 01, 2022 @02:08PM (#30881383)
Because not all the benefits of membership are excludable. Unions that hold employers accountable to following labor laws and safety regulations benefit all employees, same with annual raises, removing abusive managers, better benefits, overtime pay [1], etc. etc. Some benefits are excludable for sure, a union isn't going to fight a non-members wrongful firing case.

[1] Some unions manage to get payroll benefits for just union workers but it's vanishingly rare because it just pushes workers to the union if they don't give it to everyone.

Re:Amazon workers on Staten Island vote to unionize by jfjfkfmf on Friday April 01, 2022 @02:45PM (#30881856)
"Some benefits are excludable for sure, a union isn't going to fight a non-members wrongful firing case."

This is absolutely false. These are just a few anecdotes but there are several

"An arbitrator in 2007 found that teacher Alexis Grullon had victimized young girls with repeated hugging, "incidental though not accidental contact with one student's breast" and "sexually suggestive remarks." The teacher had denied all these charges. In the end the arbitrator found him "unrepentant," yet punished him with only a six-month suspension."

"In 2016 and 2017, Poway Unified School District officials found that Westview High School coaches Derek Peterson and Tim Medlock sent inappropriate text messages to underage students. Those officials found that they violated school policy and in response, issued each of them warnings. Both men continue to teach at Westview High."

https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10000872396390443437504577547...

https://voiceofsandiego.org/2019/08/15/how-do-misbehaving-te...

Re:Amazon workers on Staten Island vote to unionize by brimble on Friday April 01, 2022 @03:22PM (#30882243)
Are either of these cases of unions aiding a non-member, which is the topic of the sentence you quoted? I can't read all of the first one—which is an opinion piece anyway, as is the second—but the second doesn't seem to be about that.

At any rate, this, from your second link, is insightful:

> For Medlock and Peterson, it wasn’t necessarily the union that protected them. It was the district, which said they’ve been disciplined enough.

You wouldn't believe what districts cover up or ignore, even if the union's not a factor. It's routine.

Re:Amazon workers on Staten Island vote to unionize by josephcsible on Friday April 01, 2022 @02:12PM (#30881452)
Why is a union necessary to enforce labor laws and safety regulations? Can't individual employees report such violations to the government even in non-union shops?
Re:Amazon workers on Staten Island vote to unionize by brimble on Friday April 01, 2022 @03:05PM (#30882068)
It's much riskier and costlier for employees to report that kind of thing, in a non-union shop.

Union shop, if you're sure what you've been asked to do is a violation of rules, you tell your boss no, then to fuck off if they try to pressure you, and you'll be totally fine. If you're not sure if something's OK, you have the union as a resource to check with, not just other managers working for the company (whose interests may not be aligned with yours, and even asking questions might be risky).

Non-union shop... good luck with that. You can go to regulators, but it's more effort, the process for doing so is something you'll have to figure out yourself, and it's a case where even if you're right you can end up having a rough few months or even years getting it all sorted out and being fairly compensated for any e.g. retaliation that happened.

Ideally, you want reporting problems of this sort to have a low and consistent cost for the person reporting it, not a high and very uncertain cost. If you want effective enforcement, that is.

Re:Amazon workers on Staten Island vote to unionize by brimble on Friday April 01, 2022 @02:13PM (#30881457)
Do you think a government that was very popular and that most citizens thought was pretty damn good, would have any trouble if it made paying taxes optional?
Re:Amazon workers on Staten Island vote to unionize by BuckRogers on Saturday April 02, 2022 @08:04PM (#30892812)
If unions were actually beneficial to workers, then companies would have a very hard time hiring non-union workers.

And they do. Everyone wants to work at union shops where I live (midwest). UPS, or any other Teamster shop, John Deere, you name it. It's hard to get on.

You can get a job at any old non-union warehouse though. They can't keep people. I'm shocked you even made that statement, in the everyday world everyone wants a union shop job or government job. Most everything else is exploitation in pay, benefits and protection.