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Re:The Great Steepening by JumpCrisscross on Wednesday March 23, 2022 @09:51AM (#30778453)
> Unless we're profoundly convinced that the output gap is absolutely huge, then our interest rate is ridiculously too low

Markets are profoundly convinced the output gap is/was huge.

This is true in financial markets, which aren't dumping everything yielding less than 8%. It's true in the real economy, where inventories are being spun down [1]. It's true according to CBO [2] for the time period in which that eight percent registered. (Inflation was 7.9% February 2021 to '22. The CBO output gap was, in Q1 2021, roughly where it was in Q1 2003. After 9/11 and the dot-com crash.)

Side note: this is probably the smartest question on this page.

[1] https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/ISRATIO

[2] https://fred.stlouisfed.org/graph/?g=f1cZ

Re:The Great Steepening by nostrademons on Wednesday March 23, 2022 @11:07AM (#30779217)
The charts you link make the argument that the output gap was huge. Notably, 2021Q4 CBO output gap is -0.44, about where it was in 2004Q4, when we were already well on to recovery. You can plug the actual value into the Taylor rule and it comes out at about 12.5%.

My takeaways are that:

a.) Interest rates are going way up from here.

b.) Even if the Fed moves to where the dot-plots are projecting - about 3% in 2024 - it is way too little to contain inflation. I think their assumption is that inflation will come down on its own as supply-chain issues abate, but I don't share that assumption with the Fed.

Re:The Great Steepening by JumpCrisscross on Wednesday March 23, 2022 @11:57AM (#30779818)
> You can plug the actual value into the Taylor rule and it comes out at about 12.5%.

OP's equation for the Taylor Rule is...unorthodox [1]. For those who don't want to calculate equilibrium real interest rates and take logarithms of linear trends of GDPs, the Fed has a heat map tool [2].

It says 7 to 9%, using defaults. Higher than 3%. But within the model's error bars. (All that said, I have more confidence in inflation being manageable than rates remaining below 3%. Trading on that hunch, however, would require fighting the Fed. You don't fight the Fed.)

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taylor_rule#As_an_equation

[2] https://www.atlantafed.org/cqer/research/taylor-rule

Re:The Great Steepening by RC_ITR on Wednesday March 23, 2022 @12:32PM (#30780249)
Have you considered that we are in the midst of an unprecedented 'goods and services" supply shock and that will drive inflation 100x more than interest rates (which haven't shown any correlation to inflation since the 80's)?
Re:The Great Steepening by memling on Wednesday March 23, 2022 @01:41PM (#30781141)
> (which haven't shown any correlation to inflation since the 80's)

Side question: how do we calculate that correlation? To clarify, I understand that you can take two sets of observations and calculate rho, etc.

What I'm really curious about is how (or whether) the correlation is adjusted. Suppose there is always some kind of base inflation that doesn't correlate with interest rates; do we have a sense for what the additive effect of changing interest rates does?

Re:The Great Steepening by RC_ITR on Wednesday March 23, 2022 @02:13PM (#30781497)
https://fred.stlouisfed.org/graph/fredgraph.png?g=NhJO

Sorry to clarify - you can run any correlation on those two lines (wither lagged or not) and you'll find very little direct relationship, but the more important point is:

By saying interest rates and inflation are not correlated, I meant that both inflation and interest rates were declining to historic lows, which is in direct opposition to the theory that 'raising interest rates reduced inflation.' As you can see on this chart, interest rates aren't even that much lower than they were in the period where we were worried we'd never see inflation ever again.

My main gripe with the current narrative around inflation is 'does it really seem logical that moving from 2.5% to 1.0% 10Y yields is what caused inflation (when going from 7.5% to 2.% had no effect), given all we know about how broken our supply chains have become?'

Re:The Great Steepening by hcknwscommenter on Wednesday March 23, 2022 @03:12PM (#30782125)
It was not just the 10Y though. QE + traditional federal reserve cuts affected the whole curve, out to 30 and even longer-dated (non-USG) instruments. Then you had the giant stimulus on top of that. This was about as close to helicopter money as I think the US has ever done. Many other countries adopted similar measures. We are seeing the effects of inflation from each of the above. And now, the Fed is winding down QE and raising interest rates. Stimulus is fading. This all takes time. But yes, I think it is pretty reasonable to assume inflation will go down over the next 12 months.

Edit to change QT to QE

Re:The Great Steepening by RC_ITR on Wednesday March 23, 2022 @03:38PM (#30782388)
1) 10Y by far is the most important benchmark used in the US economy. It's the foundational rate for almost all consumer lending including mortgages and widely used as the RFR in discounting cashflows.

2) My gripe with the stimulus argument is 'why is inflation accelerating 12 months after we stopped'? For example, are used cars (a major contributor to current inflation) really going up in price b/c people can afford to pay higher prices, or is it because we are making way fewer new cars? Same story for houses (given that we've chosen to abandon billions of sqft of office space and replace that with at-home offices).

Sure, loose money support isn't helping inflation, but the idea that the solution to our current inflation problem is to decrease demand seems unthoughtful, given the fact that we know we are producing well below our potential (on a global scale).

I actually don't disagree with you that inflation will go down in the next 12 months, but I think it will primarily be on the supply side. At least I hope so.

Re:The Great Steepening by hcknwscommenter on Friday March 25, 2022 @10:30AM (#30802610)
Regarding point 1. Sure the 10 year matters. A lot. Regarding point 2, we did not stop stimulating the economy 12 months ago. We are still stimulating the economy with negative real interest rates, a relatively high level of deficit spending, and a large federal reserve balance sheet. The only stimulus we have wound down is the pandemic loans/grants, extra unemployment benefits. We are only starting to unwind the FED balance sheet. And, real interest rates are very negative. These last accommodative measures are occurring in the midst of a fairly good economy (very low unemployment, rising wages, etc). That is why we are seeing inflation accelerating.

Okay, these are all demand issues, and you point to the concomitant supply issues as well. And I agree. The supply issues certainly make it worse.

Re:The Great Steepening by RC_ITR on Monday March 28, 2022 @02:42PM (#30834013)
>The supply issues certainly make it worse.

But here's where we disagree and I encourage you to answer this question:

Are cars/gas/consumer goods/food going up in price because consumers can afford to pay more for them (demand-side) or is it because we are making less of that stuff? I agree it's both, but it appears to be supply WAY more than demand (given how loose monetary policy has been for 20+ years and how unprecedented this supply shock is)

Re:The Great Steepening by truffdog on Wednesday March 23, 2022 @08:10PM (#30785138)
Something else that stopped in the 1980s was the oil crisis. Possibly we all give Volcker too much credit.