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Re:Our fundamental right to shame and shun the New York Times by rayiner on Tuesday March 22, 2022 @06:53PM (#30772657)
I think both you and Ken and the New York Times are getting tripped up by the phrase "free speech." What the New York Times is actually talking about is "ideological pluralism." When elderly Millennials like me were growing up, you could have--at least in educated circles--a broad range of heterodox opinions without anyone getting too upset about what you said.

And that's just not true anymore. I've got in trouble with white progressives in my social circle (which is mostly white progressives) for saying we should carefully scrutinize refugees from Syria and Iraq. Meanwhile my dad--whose grandfather was an Imam and who has worked in Afghanistan--expressed the exact same opinion after we withdrew from Afghanistan and there was the question of Afghan refugees.

Ken is absolutely correct that conservatives used to do it too. But I didn't grow up in the deep south where being in favor of same-sex marriage in the 1990s would get you socially ostracized. I am alarmed, however, that in blue America in 2022, I can't even discuss how my Muslim family members feel about marriage, divorce, etc., except to condemn their views. Saying "rural America in the 1990s was just as bad" doesn't actually score any points with me.

I think the New York Times editorial is confused and inelegant. But kudos to them for actually speaking up. Because I don't think we're all just having some collective delusion that something has changed in "liberal society" and that change isn't a good one.

Re:Our fundamental right to shame and shun the New York Times by WesternWind on Tuesday March 22, 2022 @07:11PM (#30772801)
The thing is, we do carefully scrutinize refugees, very carefully.

https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/kyleblaine/some-things-...

Saying we need to do so very carefully is implicitly suggesting that that's not currently the case, and that does absolutely feed into racism against MENA/South Asian people and Islamophobia.

Re:Our fundamental right to shame and shun the New York Times by _-david-_ on Tuesday March 22, 2022 @07:31PM (#30772981)
The person you are responding to was talking about the Afghan refugees from the Afghanistan pull out. Those refugees do not appear to have been carefully scrutinized, at least not at the same level has past Middle Eastern refugees.
Re:Our fundamental right to shame and shun the New York Times by WesternWind on Wednesday March 23, 2022 @01:55AM (#30775425)
"I've got in trouble with white progressives in my social circle (which is mostly white progressives) for saying we should carefully scrutinize refugees from Syria and Iraq."

He was saying he got in trouble talking about Syria and Iraq.

That said, Afghan evacuees undergo the same vetting process. https://www.dhs.gov/sites/default/files/publications/21_0903...

Re:Our fundamental right to shame and shun the New York Times by tptacek on Tuesday March 22, 2022 @06:59PM (#30772693)
Ken White doesn't think you're having a collective delusion either. See, for instance, his recent response on Twitter to the drama about unpopular speech at Occidental. So I'm not sure what you're rebutting here.