I agree, it's imprudent to try and draw direct parallels between the US and any other historical empire, including Rome.

That said, we can learn much from history. And in the US and Europe, we can learn even more from the history of the "West."

As Eugen Weber[0] put it[1]:

   ...But where should we start?  Perhaps the first 
   thing to ask is what the scope of a series on the 
   history of Western Civilization should be? 

   And the best way to think of it is that we are going 
   back to the old country.  We're going back to where 
   many of our ancestors came from. To see where their 
   stories came from, and their memories and their 
   habits and the way they are, which has made us the 
   way we are.

   This is what history is about.  Where we come from.  
   What lies behind the way we live and act and think.  
   How our institutions, our religions, our laws were 
   made.

Understanding the thoughts, fears, triumphs and failures of our forbears is an important window on our human nature and the things that have driven us since time immemorial, and continues to drive us to this day.

Whether it's the ancient Egyptians, Greeks and the many civilizations of the Levant/Fertile Crescent as well as Rome, the Abrahamic[2] religions and the thinkers/ideas of the ensuing millenia, they all have something important to teach us about the world we live in now. They did, after all, birth many of our core beliefs, ideas and institutions.

While it's generally not productive to point at specific issues and exclaim "This is just like Rome!" or something similar, understanding the culture and practices of our ancestors can give us insight into our current world.

But that's not enough. While human nature is human nature which hasn't really changed in a couple hundred thousand years, times do change.

And when they do, we need to, as Lincoln pointed out[3]:

   The dogmas of the quiet past, are inadequate to the 
   stormy present. The occasion is piled high with 
   difficulty, and we must rise -- with the occasion.
   As our case is new, so we must think anew, and act 
   anew. We must disenthrall ourselves, and then we 
   shall save our country.

As we are keenly reminded by Paul M.M. Cooper and his Fall of Civilizations[4] podcast.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugen_Weber

[1] https://archive.org/details/western-tradition-01-the-dawn-of... (timecode: 06:35)

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abrahamic_religions

[3] http://www.abrahamlincolnonline.org/lincoln/speeches/congres...

[4] https://fallofcivilizationspodcast.com/

Edit: Fixed formatting/transcription issues.

Apparently, I'm on a tour of "old saws," so here's another one:

   You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him 
   drink.

   You can lead a fool to knowledge, but you can't make 
   him think.

[0] https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/George_Santayana#Vol._I,_Reaso...

I think if one[2] of you could just a bit more explicitly acknowledge that you are not saying "OMG this is EXACTLY the same, America is 100% for certain going to fall just like Rome in 471!" but only "there are quite a few parallels here, here, and there, so it might well behoove us to keep an eye on this, this, and that"; and/or the other could apply this more charitable reading -- which seems to be the precise point they're arguing -- to what the first is saying, then it looks to me like there really isn't any (or at least, not much) actual disagreement between you at all. Or is it just me that's totally misreading one or both of you?

Hey BTW, thanks for that second more caustic formulation of the saying; hadn't seen that one before. I may, when sufficiently exasperated, use it in future... But there is actually a bit of optimism to it: While you can't cure stupidity, you may be able to at least alleviate ignorance -- one issue and one fool at a time. (After the fool in question has been led to knowledge on issue X, he won't need to think about it for himself any more; while still in general a fool, hopefully he won't, armed with newfound knowledge as he now is, act like one on this issue in the future.)

__

[1]: Not being an American, "America is going to fall...!" doesn't have the same direct relevance for me, but I can see the same parallels being applied to other realms -- and AFAIK, they have been used like that about lots of nations, since about forever.

[2]: nobody9999? Not sure; possibly getting who is on which side of the argument mixed up since I see only the comment I'm directly replying to on this input screen. Could be the other way around.

Good call. I have no issue with edgyquant.

They said:

   For sure I’m not saying there aren’t lessons, just 
   that the type of people who cherry pick a few 
   examples and take them as given proof of some 
   historical trend aren’t likely to find these lessons.

>I think if one[2] of you could just a bit more explicitly acknowledge that you are not saying "OMG this is EXACTLY the same, America is 100% for certain going to fall just like Rome in 471!" but only "there are quite a few parallels here, here, and there, so it might well behoove us to keep an eye on this, this, and that"; and/or the other could apply this more charitable reading -- which seems to be the precise point they're arguing -- to what the first is saying, then it looks to me like there really isn't any (or at least, not much) actual disagreement between you at all. Or is it just me that's totally misreading one or both of you?

Unless I missed something, neither edgyquant nor I asserted anything even close to "OMG this is EXACTLY the same, America is 100% for certain going to fall just like Rome in 471!"

If I read them correctly, edgyquant pretty directly dismissed such "reasoning," and I never even approached saying anything close.

But you're right. Edgyquant and I seem to be (mostly) in agreement.

What's more, I didn't get the sense from edgyquant that they thought we were in conflict, nor did I contradict anything they said. Rather, I elucidated why I thought that history was valuable.

Perhaps edgyquant got a different vibe. I don't know. Perhaps they can chime in.