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Re:On Being Indispensable by gautamdivgi on Wednesday March 16, 2022 @01:41AM (#30695701)
Being indispensable to a team or a manager in a large company can actually be self-destructive to your career. I realized this the hard way a long time ago when my managers refused to let me move for a promotion because I was "indispensable" and "critical to the project". I've always made it a point to know who my back-ups are and have my supervisors assign them formally.

In short, make it a point to share knowledge anyway. Keep a wiki, well written notes or documents, README.md's, whatever. Make it a point that people who are backing you up acknowledge and understand what you have and most importantly ask them to grow that body of knowledge.

Re:On Being Indispensable by jacobolus on Wednesday March 16, 2022 @05:11AM (#30696740)
> refused to let me move for a promotion because I was "indispensable" and "critical to the project".

So would they rather have you quit? If not they should be willing to give you whatever title, pay bump, time off, etc. is necessary to keep you long enough for a replacement solution to be found. Otherwise if you just quit they’re stuck negotiating from a position of weakness to hire you back as a much higher paid contractor, or if you decide to take an extended vacation or work somewhere else they are left high and dry.

If you are truly “indispensable”, that makes you the one with all of the leverage. If they can jerk you around without pushback, then “indispensable” sounds more like a rhetorical device / excuse.

Re:On Being Indispensable by crispyambulance on Wednesday March 16, 2022 @07:07AM (#30697381)
> So would they rather have you quit? If not they should be willing to [...]

I know that many folks here work in elite organizations, so maybe it's hard to fathom, but THE NORM for big companies is to be dumb as a box of rocks when it comes to organizational stuff and technical operations.

Talented people who are intrinsically cross-functional, curious, and who always to do what it takes to "help the team" often get hammered flat from years of the daily grind-stone and then just quit, like the OP.

In most places no one is even thinking about "retaining talent" until it's far too late.

Re:On Being Indispensable by hinkley on Wednesday March 16, 2022 @12:58PM (#30701265)
Retaining talent conversations feel much like people who show up to AA after the liver disease diagnosis. They didn’t think it would happen to them, they didn’t look at it, and their sudden conversion is a rear-guard action, closing the barn door after the horses have gotten out.

If your bosses are saying “retention” out loud you are probably already fucked, even if your division seems to be doing okay.

Re:On Being Indispensable by dagw on Wednesday March 16, 2022 @06:39AM (#30697206)
So would they rather have you quit? If not they should be willing to give you whatever title, pay bump, time off, etc.

For large enough companies the 'company' is not a single unit making unified decisions. I might be "indispensable" to my boss, perhaps his boss, the project, and my department. However they don't have the power to give me a pay rise or extra time off outside the normal bounds set by their bosses. Me, my boss or even my department however aren't indispensable to the whole global multinational company we all work for.

If I quit and the project fails, then my boss and several people on that project might lose their jobs, and the remnants of that department might end up folded into some other department. My bosses boss might not get a nice bonus that year due to the fact that the project he was overseeing was a massive failure. However "The Company" and it's tens of thousands of other employees all around the world will keep on trucking as if nothing had happened.

Re:On Being Indispensable by scarface74 on Wednesday March 16, 2022 @09:16AM (#30698382)
To add on, it is a lot better story to tell during behavioral interviews:

“I was hired by the Director to solve $x problem. I led the project. I put processes in place. I led training for the team and they went public a year later. I met my former director for lunch a year later and most of my processes are still there in a slightly evolved form.”

About the same as above from my job after that. But change “Director” to “CTO” and change “went public” to “got acquired for 10x revenue”.

(Yes I can draw a direct line from the architectural changes that let them pivot to selling access to micro services to their value proposition when acquired)

Re:On Being Indispensable by einpoklum on Wednesday March 16, 2022 @01:17PM (#30701479)
> However they don't have the power to give me a pay rise or extra time off outside the normal bounds set by their bosses.

Maybe. But - maybe they just follow the path of least resistance, which is to lean on you rather than go up to their bosses and say "John Smith is quitting, and when he does, this project will crash and burn. We must stop this or the company will lose $$$."

Re:On Being Indispensable by hinkley on Wednesday March 16, 2022 @01:01PM (#30701300)
> my department however aren't indispensable to the whole global multinational company we all work for.

Some of that is wishful thinking on their part. They can’t acknowledge that the riffraff keep the wheels on and may swing the other way as a form of denial. They probably treat waiters like shit too.

Re:On Being Indispensable by hinkley on Wednesday March 16, 2022 @12:53PM (#30701201)
It is very clear that bosses have had good luck bluffing or calling other people’s bluffs and many just do it as a matter of course. I bet you won’t quit over a 5% discrepancy in pay, and I’ll just ratchet that up every review period, and hope you don’t notice when that climbs to 10% under market.

It’s kind of the same game landlords play. I always find it somewhat amusing when a landlord forces a business out of a storefront and then the storefront sits empty for six months or a year. How long is it going to take you to break even on that?

Re:On Being Indispensable by citizenpaul on Wednesday March 16, 2022 @09:54PM (#30706668)
Lots of commercial buildings are passed down from generations. You don't know how to think like them. They have the building its been generating money and they have lots of money so they don't care. They want toy X that costs $XXXX per month if the tenant leaves they don't get the toy and they lose the rent they don't need to live anyway. If the tenant stays they get the toy. Otherwise they don't care cause they are good financially. You would be amazed how man "business" decisions are made based on the basis of if it buys the owner the toy they want.

Toy is just a euphemism. It could be a service, it could be just showing up their friend jimmy that they made more money this year. IT could be to win a bet. IT could be the tenant scratched their Bently. It could be that somebody they don't like frequents the establishment.

Re:On Being Indispensable by ljm on Wednesday March 16, 2022 @02:52PM (#30702533)
For storefronts specifically, and depending on the country you're talking about, there's more likely than not an attempt to evade or avoid tax. For example, this is exactly why tourist attractions like Oxford Street in London are full of American Candy stores now. They'll be there for a few months and then be gone: the landlord saves on business rates because they'd found a tenant, and the actual company vanishes without having paid the rates they were responsible for.

In that case, it's beneficial to the landlord to have some scam shop in because even if they're not being paid rent, the money they're saving from an occupied storefront easily outweighs every other alternative.

Re:On Being Indispensable by xlii on Wednesday March 16, 2022 @06:21AM (#30697091)
I would argue that exercising such leverage is not only for benefit of the indispensable but also for the organizations which are often inert unless enough initiative is given.

Indispensability (true or perceived) hurts not only person but organization as a whole. It creates tension between them, which might break at any point for any reason (a bus, reaching point of no return, dragging organization down) and create difficult to fill void once that happens.

I think it should, however, be considered from the true indispensability and not the perceived one. Perceived one is bullying employees, accidentally or on purpose. Sometimes it's bullying ourselves by creating overly controlled environment that solidified over years.

In perfect life scenario utilizing leverage would work as following: The Indispensable ask for a minor raise (1-5%) -> Company agrees, because The Indispensable is truly indispensable -> 1 month passes -> Repeat

After couple iterations there would be a break point because company will start to weight options and might decide to compensate instead of waiting for next month and another raise request. In this scenario The Indispensable stops being one, so their quality of work improves (less stress) and they get additional income. Company retains The Indispensable since they signaled and through adequate pressure achieved the goal. Fragile process with single point of failure is resolved with more stable solution.

Unfortunately it doesn't work in real life often. Some companies simply can't afford matching expectations, no matter how warranted they are. Indispensability there is simply a tax imposed on worker. Some people aren't confident and courageous enough to bring issues out and try to act on them (as business can be intimidating). Last and not least - true indispensability isn't black or white. There's a mixture of politics, perceived indispensability, true indispensability and controlling behavior by The Indispensable one.

Re:On Being Indispensable by fxtentacle on Wednesday March 16, 2022 @05:31AM (#30696843)
That sounds to me like an invitation to negotiate ;)

Option A) You truly are indispensable and critical to the project, and soon you're going to be their best-paid employee.

Option B) They will now find ways to make you dispensable. And then you'll qualify for that promotion.

Re:On Being Indispensable by scarface74 on Wednesday March 16, 2022 @05:54AM (#30696950)
It’s not about “I’m indispensable pay me more”. It’s about “I don’t want to have 1 year of experience 10 times”. I always want to have the optionality to change jobs . Things change. Culture changes.
Re:On Being Indispensable by Syntonicles on Wednesday March 16, 2022 @08:05AM (#30697732)
I've heard this "one year of experience 10 times" phrase before. It seems to mean different things in different contexts to different people. Can you explain what it means to you and the implications?
Re:On Being Indispensable by scarface74 on Wednesday March 16, 2022 @08:45AM (#30698053)
Real world example:

I started my second job in 1999 it was for a bill processing/printing company. Companies would send us data files via ftp, we would merge the files and create files in a format used by industrial printers and mail them out. Later on we were one of the early integrators with CheckFree that was the backend for most online bill payment services.

I wrote mostly processing programs in VB6, Perl and C++. I did some GUI programming with C++/MFC/COM (ask your parents).

Fast forward to 2008, the world had moved on. But I was still using VB6 (discontinued in 2001) and C++/MFC. My compensation was only $7K more in 2008 than it was in 2000. There were other people doing the new shiny while I maintained the old systems.

I learned my lesson. Over the next 10 years, I changed jobs 5 times and doubled my income - nothing to brag about. It was still about what entry level developers get as return offers in BigTech. I was laser focused on keeping my skillset in sync with the market.

By 2017 though, I realized my market value as an enterprise dev was going to plateau in 3 years and my youngest was graduating from college. I started pivoting to “cloud” and got into “application modernization” consulting - basically a fancy term for cloud app development and deployments.

I got my current job in consulting in about two years ago.

Re:On Being Indispensable by mattgreenrocks on Wednesday March 16, 2022 @11:29AM (#30700019)
Good lessons here on tracking the market, keeping skills up to date, and skating to where the puck is going. I imagine the modernization niche pays pretty well. :)
Re:On Being Indispensable by scarface74 on Wednesday March 16, 2022 @11:55AM (#30700389)
Ironically, “application modernization” seems to be the worse paying cloud specialty in the industry. At most consulting companies, “implementations” pays the least and is outsourced to cheaper labor and junior consultants.

I work at the one company that pays decently well for AWS + enterprise dev + consulting. It’s not hard to guess which one it is..

Re:On Being Indispensable by ljm on Wednesday March 16, 2022 @02:18PM (#30702174)
There's the risk of heroism too... you're indispensible because you're that one person who goes above and beyond and everyone sees you as the go-to when shit goes wrong.

I've been there a lot, not on purpose but in some organisations it's either that you get your hands dirty or you spend 10x as much time watching the buck being passed. It's definitely one of those things as a developer where you need to learn some management skills or end up burned out of the job.

Re:On Being Indispensable by plutonorm on Wednesday March 16, 2022 @04:05AM (#30696397)
That would be an instant resignation as a matter of principle for me.
Re:On Being Indispensable by CapitalistCartr on Wednesday March 16, 2022 @06:16AM (#30697069)
Principles are a luxury not afforded the poor masses.
Re:On Being Indispensable by wpietri on Wednesday March 16, 2022 @11:09AM (#30699735)
Or even a lot of the middling ones. In the US something like a trillion dollars a year is spent on making people want to buy stuff. Not to mention all the social forces that encourage spending. Relatively few people manage to live far enough beneath their means that they can just quit a job on principle.

I happen to be one of the people who can (and has!) quit a job on principle. But it's very much a luxury good that I work hard to afford. And it's easier for me: no kids, no parents to care for, no mortgage to worry about. I would rather more people quit their jobs on principle (or risked it through efforts like unionization). But I mostly don't blame them if they feel like they can't.

Re:On Being Indispensable by hinkley on Wednesday March 16, 2022 @01:05PM (#30701358)
I’ll take “people who haven’t bought a house or have kids” for 500, Alex

There’s a thread right now in r/experiencedDevs about a guy who is trying to buy a house while his employer is cratering around him. Stuff like that happens and tends to stick with you forever.

Re:On Being Indispensable by throwaway6532 on Wednesday March 16, 2022 @11:41PM (#30707420)
I have a house and a kid and I have quit on principle before.
Re:On Being Indispensable by plutonorm on Wednesday March 16, 2022 @12:41PM (#30701048)
Obviously you find another job first. That will take a few weeks in this market.
Re:On Being Indispensable by kaba0 on Wednesday March 16, 2022 @06:37AM (#30697190)
If you are indispensable, then surely you have quite a leverage.
Re:On Being Indispensable by pc86 on Wednesday March 16, 2022 @10:46AM (#30699479)
No.

Scenario: There is a project your boss is wholly responsible for. You, from a technical perspective, are absolutely indispensable to the success of said project. Maybe it's a small team, or everyone is overloaded, but you can draw a direct line between you quitting (or doing a bad job) and your boss getting called out or potentially fired.

Your boss, however, is not indispensable to their boss, nor is this project indispensable to the larger department. You ask for your raise because of your leverage. Your boss might be worried and try to get it for you. Their boss, not caring about this project that much in the broader context of their work, laughs and says no.

You can absolutely be critical to the success of a project, and even important to your boss's future, but have no real leverage over your situation. That's absolutely a reason to leave but it doesn't mean you'll be able to squeeze any more money out of the place before you do.

Re:On Being Indispensable by geodel on Wednesday March 16, 2022 @02:19PM (#30702183)
Such a great point to make. Specially since I see myself in similar situation. Maintaining a legacy system on which all the devs except me who worked in past have left. It is critical system or so I heard but as far as promotion/raise go, almost nothing for last 3 years.

However instead of getting angry I get that I may be important to direct boss or one level above. But as far as company goes they are all in cloud, next generation and what not. So my criticality is inconsequential in larger context.

Re:On Being Indispensable by teknopaul on Wednesday March 16, 2022 @08:48AM (#30698084)
That argument does not solve the problem. You will stay or go from one project that fails to the next like that. Better to have worked on projects that are still good on your CV.