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Re:Go 1.18 by AnimalMuppet on Tuesday March 15, 2022 @03:18PM (#30689938)
In fact, Go was designed to enable average programmers to be productive on large systems. You might call that "Blub"; I don't.

In fact, I claim that Paul Graham is completely wrong in that essay. To see why, think about Lisp and Haskell. When Lisp users look at Haskell, they know they're looking down, and they know why. "How can you get anything done in Haskell? It doesn't even have macros." But when Haskell users look at Lisp, they also know that they're looking down, and they know why. "How can you get anything done in Lisp? It doesn't even have a decent type system."

This situation - both languages certain that they're looking down when they look at each other - shows the problem in Graham's analysis. He assumes that languages can be placed on a one-dimensional axis labeled "power". They can't be, and the Lisp/Haskell issue proves it. That renders Graham's analysis invalid.

Instead, it might be better to think of languages as living in a multi-dimensional tree. Think of the program you're trying to write as having a vector in that multi-dimensional space. (Not so much the program itself, but what it makes it difficult to write.) Pick the language that extends the farthest in the direction of the vector defined by the program.

What Go did is recognize that "ability to get a large team of average programmers to maintain and extend a large codebase for decades" was one of the dimensions of the space. That makes it "Blub" by Graham's definition, but I don't think that's meaningful. Instead, if that's what your program needs, pick a language that does that.

Re:Go 1.18 by zozbot234 on Tuesday March 15, 2022 @07:36PM (#30693380)
> In fact, Go was designed to enable average programmers to be productive on large systems.

The fallacy in that argument is that effective programming "in the large" requires more features, not less. Sure, there are highly dynamic programming languages that cannot meaningfully support programming beyond the scale of a "personal side project". Ironically for Paul Graham's "Blub" argument, LISP is quite clearly one such language. The same applies to languages such as Python, Ruby or ECMAscript, which would have been among the main alternatives to Go when it was first released.

And one can also fairly argue that Go has in fact made it simpler and easier to "program in the large" compared to C++, Java or C#, which were the other major alternatives to Go around that same time. So Pike's argument is not wrong as far as it goes. It is merely of limited applicability, because the jury is very much still out wrt. more recent and arguably higher-level languages like ReasonML, Kotlin, Dart, Erlang and yes, Rust. It's silly to conflate these languages with the likes of Python or C++, that is indeed the kind of argument that "Blub" was written for!