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Re:Welcome to Web 3.0 by can16358p on Tuesday March 15, 2022 @05:51AM (#30683423)
Sure. A "free" internet.

Not in terms of money, but in terms of freedom of speech without censorship and a controlling authority.

With no authority that decides whether I can send money to/receive from someone.

Especially living in a corrupt authoratarian system, even only those two outweight all the bad sides (tx fees, scalability, PoW environmental effects) for me. It does more good than it harms in the big picture.

Re:Welcome to Web 3.0 by acdha on Tuesday March 15, 2022 @09:02AM (#30684707)
> Especially living in a corrupt authoratarian system, even only those two outweight all the bad sides (tx fees, scalability, PoW environmental effects) for me. It does more good than it harms in the big picture.

More accurately, it could if it actually worked but since it doesn't all you're doing is paying more for lower quality of service. A key concept to understand is that when blockchain sales people say “no authority” they mean “except the miners, software developers, exchange and oracle operators, and the governments which have jurisdiction over them”. Just as real-world censorship is far more often based on after the fact consequences rather than preventing someone from speaking first, consequences can be applied retroactively to anyone who participates in illegal transactions and blockchains very helpfully publish a full list of transactions so the authorities don't miss anyone.

We're seeing this right now: technically, someone in Russia can make a Bitcoin transfer since the Russian government hasn't chosen to block the protocol at the network layer but when they do so they are finding that many companies won't participate in those transfers and since the history is public that can extend to any downstream transactions based on the transferred funds.

Re:Welcome to Web 3.0 by miracle2k on Tuesday March 15, 2022 @10:20AM (#30685625)
> More accurately, it could if it actually worked but since it doesn't all you're doing is paying more for lower quality of service. A key concept to understand is that when blockchain sales people say “no authority” they mean “except the miners, software developers, exchange and oracle operators, and the governments which have jurisdiction over them”.

Critics like to say "it doesn't work", then the next day complain about how it enables a ransomware plague. You can't have it both ways. The fact is it clearly works.

This isn't to say it's magic; it doesn't protect you from bullets any more than it makes you coffee. It is not a magical unicorn; just finding a reason why there might still be censorship somewhere is not a valid argument.

Free speech laws work even if Facebook deletes your post, or you a fired, or sometimes someone doesn't appeal their conviction. Your argument about "miners, developers or exchange operators" existing is not any more valid than this one is.

Re:Welcome to Web 3.0 by acdha on Tuesday March 15, 2022 @10:53AM (#30686071)
It worked as long as nobody was trying to go after it. That's been changing and as we've seen the parties involved have plenty of real-world presence which various authorities have been able to take advantage of. This is why the absolute claims about “free speech” are simply reflecting a deeper misunderstanding: it's true that nobody can stop you from making a Bitcoin transaction unless they block the protocol entirely but the retroactive consequences deter people quite effectively, very similarly to how to even very authoritarian states can't prevent you from saying something in public but can very effectively make it too risky for most people to do.

> Free speech laws work even if Facebook deletes your post, or you a fired, or sometimes someone doesn't appeal their conviction. Your argument about "miners, developers or exchange operators" existing is not any more valid than this one is.

Free speech laws generally don't apply to private companies like Facebook, who are generally given a high level discretion for how they choose to run their communities. The same is true of a blockchain network: the implementers and operators set the policies and since these systems are based on money that generally means that you're getting the rules which the major players either want or are required to implement by the governments with jurisdiction over them. That last part is key to understand: maybe a protocol allows you to make a transaction somewhere but the cost/risk shifts considerably if the recipient knows that they won't be able to use it in most places and every potential buyer can easily tell that it's on a list of tainted tokens.

Re:Welcome to Web 3.0 by miracle2k on Tuesday March 15, 2022 @11:48AM (#30686804)
> It worked as long as nobody was trying to go after it. That's been changing

I see no evidence of this. Authorities have been going after crypto-currencies users very effectively ever since the early days of Bitcoin; from the first darknet market takedowns, to arresting people on LocalBitcoins because they didn't register as money transmitters.

It sounds like we agree on the limitations of a ledger, but saying it "doesn't work" simply because the physical world exists and governments can arrest you, attempt to track you, make rules for exchanges and merchants etc is nonsense. Of course they can.

They can equally block encrypted chat apps, VPNs, prevent device makers from allowing them onto the hardware, force backdoors, effectively threaten people who use them, or spy on your communications locally.

None of these things mean that encryption doesn't work, or that it isn't useful.

Re:Welcome to Web 3.0 by acdha on Wednesday March 16, 2022 @10:45AM (#30699465)
It's true that encryption is useful despite not being perfect but there's an important bit of missing context: blockchain systems are being sold as suitable protection for people “living in a corrupt authoratarian system” and that changes the risk calculations considerably.

If you live in a relatively open democracy, the knowledge that your encrypted chat app could be attacked by the police isn't a huge deal because there's a legal process protecting you but that trade off changes considerably if you are at risk from a hostile government. Systems which require you to leave a public paper-trail for the authorities, for example, are too risky to consider and something more privacy oriented is still a significant gamble — especially since in such an environment it's likely that you'd be at risk simply having it installed on your devices unless you were certain that it made no identifiable network activity. If I lived in China now, for example, I would not want to risk having something like a VPN client or Signal installed on my phone if the police stopped me or started linking DNS lookups to ISP customers.

Re:Welcome to Web 3.0 by can16358p on Wednesday March 16, 2022 @09:05AM (#30698248)
I could perfectly think of a scenario where there is an anonymously deployed "faucet" contract with some logic that distributes its coins to various L2 protocols or maybe some form of future shards, and enables people to interact with that contract's currency on those upper protocols whereas anyone can claim those coins by only paying gas. And anyone could participate anonymously by doing a little mining over VPN/Tor in a pool with a freshly generated wallet for a little Ether that can be used for gas, and again submit their transactions containing any speech they like using again VPN/Tor and not interacting with those wallets with any KYC-enabled exchange.

Sure, gas fees aren't that low to cover with "a little mining" but I'm sure there will be a middle ground between with more gas available for anonymous posting and optimizing gas use for these actions, with some volunteers over the world incentivizing free speech contract interaction with lower gas fees just like people volunteering to participate in Tor network.

While we're not there yet, I see it very hard to trace any transactions that way.

Re:Welcome to Web 3.0 by acdha on Wednesday March 16, 2022 @09:46AM (#30698742)
> again submit their transactions containing any speech they like using again VPN/Tor and not interacting with those wallets with any KYC-enabled exchange.

That last part seems like the key challenge to me: what you described isn't cheap and it only works to the extent that you can do business with people who aren't following KYC. That makes it more likely that the entire service will be tainted because the non-trivial cost means that people aren't going to use it if they don't need to.

The other problem is that durable records are inherently risky. Your use of such a system isn't just a question of whether someone can see the transactions immediately but whether it'll retroactively become de-anonymized — the public blockchains are right out there but if you're trying to use a private L2 system you now have another party you're placing a lot of trust in — not unlike the questions about how you'd be able to trust a VPN provider or Tor nodes not logging your traffic.

Re:Welcome to Web 3.0 by malermeister on Tuesday March 15, 2022 @07:39AM (#30684129)
But with money being so unequally distributed, this will just result in an even more unfree internet.

If participating in anything on this new internet requires money, the Bezoses and Musks will be able to do whatever they want while the normies will beg for scraps in this vision of the web.

Instead of fixing a corrupt authoritarian system, we'll just end up implementing digital neofeudalism.

This is already starting to happen with NFT games, where westerners keep Filipinos as indentured servants. [0] It'll only get worse from here if we don't stop it.

[0] https://reason.com/2022/02/01/the-biggest-nft-video-games-ec...

Re:Welcome to Web 3.0 by UncleMeat on Tuesday March 15, 2022 @07:57AM (#30684246)
Elsewhere in this thread somebody is claiming that a Ticketmaster system could defeat scalpers by preventing resales to anybody who didn’t buy a band’s album. That sounds like an authority that decides whether I can send money to someone.
Re:Welcome to Web 3.0 by samsonradu on Tuesday March 15, 2022 @06:19AM (#30683575)
> With no authority that decides whether I can send money to/receive from someone.

That’s actually a good point and Bitcoin/crypto solves this. Why doesn’t it stop there though, what does web3 solve?

Re:Welcome to Web 3.0 by rich_sasha on Tuesday March 15, 2022 @07:31AM (#30684060)
Only somewhat I think; miners actually do have such control, and could be coerced into sanctions; it's just that no one has successfully done that (or kept quiet about it).

You can imagine outlawing processing some crypto transactions in some area. Miners have no choice but to comply, leading to at least a fork and massive confusion, at most to actual enforcement of the rule.

Blockchains may be censorship-resistant, but humans are not rubber hose resistant.

Re:Welcome to Web 3.0 by miracle2k on Tuesday March 15, 2022 @10:28AM (#30685759)
> You can imagine outlawing processing some crypto transactions in some area. Miners have no choice but to comply, leading to at least a fork and massive confusion, at most to actual enforcement of the rule.

It is not a geo-location issue. The enforcement measures in question either manage to control 50% of the hashrate or they don't. If they don't, the protocol will ignore their censorship. Yes, they could continue mining a minority fork chain, but you would need to convince Bitcoin-users and services to use the fork instead of the uncensored version. You could imagine this being done by force: ISPs block the download of the software, exchanges no longer trade it etc.

The point is merely: <50%, the power is not with the miners at all; it is the users that need to be controlled.

Re:Welcome to Web 3.0 by rich_sasha on Wednesday March 16, 2022 @09:29AM (#30698540)
Since China ban, 35% of mining happens on US soils: https://www.visualcapitalist.com/after-chinas-crypto-ban-who...

Not so far off 50+eps

Re:Welcome to Web 3.0 by falcolas on Tuesday March 15, 2022 @09:49AM (#30685210)
> That’s actually a good point and Bitcoin/crypto solves this.

For now. Governments are catching on, and since the transactions are public, they can (and are putting the building blocks in place now) easily apply the same regulations to international bitcoin transactions as they do traditional money transfers.

Basically, folks today are taking advantage of a blind spot in government oversight. They're aware of it and are removing that blind spot.

I heard an analogy at one point - governments are elephants. It's usually pretty easy to avoid being stomped on when you're small. But if you do get stomped on, you'll be utterly destroyed. Many governments have no problems with making examples of people.

Re:Welcome to Web 3.0 by samsonradu on Tuesday March 15, 2022 @11:19AM (#30686401)
Yes, that’s true but for the sake of the argument lets say it solves that problem. What do web3 and NFTs solve?
Re:Welcome to Web 3.0 by falcolas on Tuesday March 15, 2022 @11:26AM (#30686489)
IMO, nothing.

NFTs are already centralized and primarily used as scams. If your non-scam NFT is blocked by OpenSea, it might as well not exist for the purposes of selling and re-selling.

Where NFTs are not used for scams, they're being implemented in a proprietary blockchain and used as a method of extracting more money from customers with no new benefits (it's not like customers can re-sell their NFTs; see: proprietary blockchain).

The only thing I potentially see as valuable from web3 is cryptographic customer identification - but this is something we've had for years (client certs), but which never took off. I don't see how "web3" will change that.

Re:Welcome to Web 3.0 by can16358p on Thursday March 17, 2022 @06:11AM (#30709436)
I work for several NFT art projects.

None of them are scams. I know many people who work on other NFT projects which aren't scam as well.

They are all on public blockchains, perfectly functional with relatively healthy communities.

I think you are cherry picking the scam projects by using the word "primarily". We hate scam projects just as much as you do, they damage the reputation and trust of whole ecosystem.

Re:Welcome to Web 3.0 by can16358p on Thursday March 17, 2022 @06:06AM (#30709413)
Creating new ways to interact with the world.

People can collect and trade items of virtually any kind that virtually represent anything digitally. They can also be programmed to perform tasks to do anything on the chain.

Basically it's creating a whole new platform that isn't controlled by anyone and everyone can contribute to it as a user or a contributor (NFT creator, contract designer etc) to suit different use cases.

Just because some actors use it to scam obviously doesn't mean that the whole ecosystem is bad.

Re:Welcome to Web 3.0 by sidibe on Tuesday March 15, 2022 @08:54AM (#30684622)
> With no authority that decides whether I can send money to/receive from someone.

There's no technical reason fiat money doesn't have this property. But societies everywhere, democratic or authoritarian, have decided that's a bad idea and have money laundering laws.

Re:Welcome to Web 3.0 by falcolas on Tuesday March 15, 2022 @09:53AM (#30685264)
AND have started the mechanisms to bring bitcoin transactions under these laws. It started (in the US) with the IRS taxing bitcoins as they would material wealth.

And why wouldn't they?

Re:Welcome to Web 3.0 by can16358p on Wednesday March 16, 2022 @08:53AM (#30698145)
Well that's terrible and should be stopped.

Digital assets shouldn't be controlled by authority as long as you aren't converting it to fiat. Then, (while I still don't support it, I get it) I understand if IRS takes a portion when you convert it to USD. But that should be all about it.

Crypto "world" should have a separate line with fiat world and fiat-controlling authorities shouldn't have any power there as long as someone doesn't convert their crypto to fiat.

Re:Welcome to Web 3.0 by sidibe on Wednesday March 16, 2022 @09:02AM (#30698224)
Why should it? If crypto became popular there wouldn't be tax revenue
Re:Welcome to Web 3.0 by can16358p on Wednesday March 16, 2022 @03:32PM (#30702943)
Because crypto should stay crypto. The moment government controls something "in-crypto" then it's no longer decentralized, beating the whole purpose.