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Re:My Experience Working and Living in China by arisAlexis on Saturday March 12, 2022 @05:40PM (#30655673)
The problem with China is that its people have never known democracy. The leader is eternal like Putin. You can see how an economic superpower with nukes and a dictator can go. So all the article goes about how nice and misunderstood things are in China without addressing the hard reality.
Re:My Experience Working and Living in China by popularonion on Saturday March 12, 2022 @06:01PM (#30655855)
> “This ties into another common misconception about China - the idea that the government wants to track everything you do at all hours of the day”

> “I was involved in a project that uses face recognition to track residents going in and out of communities … Data from such a system was also entirely managed at the local level and not automatically shared with the provincial or central governments.“

> “In all fairness, I consider it to be extremely easy to stay off China’s social credit ‘blacklist’ - just be reasonable and avoid breaking the law.”

It went through the whole progression from “it’s not happening” to “it might be happening but it’s not a big deal” to “it’s happening and you deserve it” in just a few paragraphs. Impressive.

Re:My Experience Working and Living in China by heavyset_go on Saturday March 12, 2022 @07:21PM (#30656541)
I don't know why he'd think that, as a foreigner, he'd be allowed to work on projects that touched state security.

It's like working at BlueApron and claiming that the NSA definitely isn't spying on Americans because they aren't tracking their meal plans.

Re:My Experience Working and Living in China by arisAlexis on Saturday March 12, 2022 @06:23PM (#30656053)
Yes will sound bad but I have no idea about Chinese culture but it's objectively a biased look as OP is himself raised by Chinese parents although in another country. It's not like an Italian guy is describing these issues from a Western point of view.
Re:My Experience Working and Living in China by Barrin92 on Saturday March 12, 2022 @06:40PM (#30656193)
I'm German and I lived/worked in China for several years. I don't see much bias at all in the post. The foreign perspective is straight up cartoonish and the "all seeing superpowered computers monitor you 24/7" narrative could be straight up out of futuristic Japanese anxieties of the 80s.

In reality life in China today is not much different than it is anywhere else. And I think it's borderline bizarre if not straight up insulting to suggest that the author does not have a 'Western point of view' despite living in the US since he was three years old. Chinese parents, like the Chinese state, contrary to popular imagination do not have brain altering superpowers.

Re:My Experience Working and Living in China by ethbr0 on Saturday March 12, 2022 @06:50PM (#30656287)
The CCP-as-omni-scient/-potent has the same feel as 90s American conspiracies about their government.

It takes Olympic level mental gymnastics to get to "all-seeing and all-powerful secret government" from "my local DMV can barely fill out a form correctly."

I'm sure all world governments would function much better if there were in fact a limitless supply of extraordinarily capable employees willing to work for government salaries.

Re:My Experience Working and Living in China by themacguffinman on Saturday March 12, 2022 @08:51PM (#30657098)
It doesn't take omniscience or omnipotence or a limitless supply of extraordinary employees to effect severe oppression. North Korea exists. The KGB, now called the FSB, exists. The Great Firewall exists. Xinjiang internment camps exist. Operation Fox Hunt exists. WeChat & Douyin censorship exists. The Gestapo used to exist. American government-enforced chattel slavery used to exist. American Japanese internment camps used to exist.

So tell me, how do you get there from "my local American DMV can barely fill out a form correctly"? Because it happened. And it will continue happening if we forget history.

Re:My Experience Working and Living in China by ethbr0 on Saturday March 12, 2022 @10:48PM (#30657747)
Severe oppression wasn't the the topic of the comment I was replying to. It was regarding unreasonable fantasies of competence in government oppression.

You can construct an oppressive regime simply by dedicating enough people to it, but they still can't exceed the fundamental ceiling of wage:job_tenure:performance.

Consequently, every example you mentioned routinely failed.

In aggregate they accomplished oppression, but emotional pleas about "forgetting history" don't change the fact that we're talking about bureaucracies. And bureaucracies only ever approach a semblance of competency via brute force, either in resources or manpower.

Re:My Experience Working and Living in China by jollybean on Saturday March 12, 2022 @07:43PM (#30656684)
"The foreign perspective is straight up cartoonish and the "all seeing superpowered computers monitor you 24/7" narrative could be straight up out of futuristic Japanese anxieties of the 80s."

It's 'cartoonish' for someone who has not yet been on the receiving end of the negative externalities of such system to fathom that it doesn't exist.

Why don't you, as an 'Enlightened Ex-Pat in China' go around making posts about the history of Tiananmen, or write a critical piece about the police state in Xianjing, and then see what happens? Or any number of other things?

"In reality life in China today is not much different than it is anywhere else."

Of course it is - because most of us are preoccupied with normal things.

Life in Russia is 'mostly the same as everywhere else', even right now, as we speak, isn't it?

And yet, witness what is happening in Ukraine.

'Life in China is mostly the same as everywhere else' is true, just as up to a million people are being interned on the basis of their ethnicity.

The OP is effectively correct: although 'bias' may not be the correct term, certainly the simple participation in absolutist and totalitarian systems without oversight is a problem, and the attitude that somehow this is 'normal' and 'without externalisations' is what OP was referring to as 'bias'.

Your own dissonance is similar, and it's at the root of the problem.

"My life is normal, ergo, the system is relatively normal" is the myopia that allows for these things to happen.

Re:My Experience Working and Living in China by arisAlexis on Saturday March 12, 2022 @08:15PM (#30656863)
You are participating in the HN community and can't see how regulated to the ground are all tech companies there much like state companies? That Xi abducted the CEO of Alibaba? You are also confusing ability with intent. Yes the CCP wants to but can't monitor everyone. So that's good now? How simplistic can this viewpoint be really.
Re:My Experience Working and Living in China by Barrin92 on Saturday March 12, 2022 @08:37PM (#30657000)
>can't see how regulated to the ground are all tech companies there much like state companies

but they aren't. Regulation of tech really only started in earnest only a few years ago. Before that there was barely any privacy frameworks, there was hardly any oversight into anything, and as a result the Chinese tech sector was basically in a Wild West state which accounts for much of its very rapid growth. The state was so absent that private tech companies tried to sabotage each other to gain advantages.

One interesting example from the last decade is the "3Q War" between Tencent and Qihoo, which ended in Tencent essentially blocking use of its own messaging client when they detected that people used Qihoo 360. It's as if Youtube decided to stop operating on any device that had TikTok installed.

There's countless of startup stories like this that would have ended in front of a judge or regulator anywhere else within a week, but in China for a very long time nothing really happened. Chinese 'growth hacks' and profit driven behaviour makes SV look well behaved in comparison.

This completely wrong idea that somehow every aspect of the Chinese economy is strictly regulated is one of the results of this distorted overhyped view people have of the Chinese government.

Re:My Experience Working and Living in China by arisAlexis on Sunday March 13, 2022 @05:26AM (#30659542)
Repeat after me. Jack Ma was abducted by the CCP
Re:My Experience Working and Living in China by bene_legionary on Saturday March 12, 2022 @08:35PM (#30656990)
Even Sun Yat-sen, who worked his whole life off trying to bring democracy to China in the chaos of the civil wars before WW2, decided China wasn't ready for democracy. Dr. Sun's successor state of sorts, Taiwan, did manage to carry out his vision in a way (even if they don't agree with the Chinese bit). The first time China had an election was in 1912, and it was largely free by the standards of the time, although the elected president, who was a friend of Sun, was assassinated not long after (the person who ordered the assassination ended up declaring himself emperor of China)
Re:My Experience Working and Living in China by eunos on Saturday March 12, 2022 @06:25PM (#30656067)
On the other hand the rise of China allows dispelling the myth that "outside of liberalism/west* there will be no prosperity" that was heavily propagated during late 90s and early 00s.

* For the west part, I recently saw an old video of Biden (still senator) mocking post-Soviet Russia for thinking to look at China for prosperity.

Re:My Experience Working and Living in China by qiskit on Sunday March 13, 2022 @12:10PM (#30662578)
> On the other hand the rise of China allows dispelling the myth that "outside of liberalism/west* there will be no prosperity" that was heavily propagated during late 90s and early 00s.

Which is insane when you look back on it. Since we didn't become prosperous under liberalism either. Nowhere in the west did liberal democracy bring prosperity. The US wasn't a liberal democracy when it became rich. We are the wealthiest nation in the world decades before liberal democracy arrived. The same goes for the british, french, etc.

Re:My Experience Working and Living in China by heavyset_go on Saturday March 12, 2022 @07:23PM (#30656564)
The End of History comes to mind. I remember people parading that book around like it was gospel.
[dead]
Re:My Experience Working and Living in China by eunos on Saturday March 12, 2022 @07:32PM (#30656618)
Ahahaha that clip. Chinese nationalists used that clip (among others) to show that US only friendly to you when you are unequal or incomparable to the US. When of course China is rising US reacted by showing its zero-sum mentality instead.

P.S. Xi wasn't the paramount leader yet back in 2011.

Re:My Experience Working and Living in China by AsceticBear on Saturday March 12, 2022 @07:41PM (#30656676)
What is real democracy? Is it true that only Western democracy is correct in the world? It's just a joke.

It's not that China doesn't have democracy. China's democratic system was created by itself based on its own national conditions. It is completely different from Western democracy, but it does not mean that there is no democracy.

It is recommended that you read the history of China objectively and understand how this country with a long history has developed step by step to today. Oh I believe your opinion will change.

Re:My Experience Working and Living in China by arisAlexis on Saturday March 12, 2022 @08:11PM (#30656844)
Democracy is easily defined by not having the same leader self appointed for life. You can't dance around that China is a democracy. It's ridiculous and adds nothing.
Re:My Experience Working and Living in China by AsceticBear on Saturday March 12, 2022 @08:27PM (#30656945)
Please take a look at the transition of Chinese leaders over the past 20 years, it's not what you say. China's population is too large, the Western multi-party system is not suitable for China, and the internal friction is too serious. Western systems have been explored in Chinese history, but all have failed.
Re:My Experience Working and Living in China by shigawire on Saturday March 12, 2022 @08:44PM (#30657048)
Sure, but democracy has a real meaning. Just because you like single party rule doesn't mean you can call it democracy because that has a better brand than autocracy.
Re:My Experience Working and Living in China by philliphaydon on Saturday March 12, 2022 @08:44PM (#30657046)
No they haven’t. China has never attempted anything except authoritarian and totalitarian.
Re:My Experience Working and Living in China by pertymcpert on Sunday March 13, 2022 @12:44AM (#30658344)
Why can't Chinese people implement real democracy? Are they incapable of it?
Re:My Experience Working and Living in China by bene_legionary on Sunday March 13, 2022 @01:32AM (#30658538)
It depends on your definition of Chinese and ethnicity (and I don't mean to offend anybody at all, just for the sake of an answer), but Taiwan is a very real democracy. Perhaps if the KMT won the civil war, there might be democracy in all of China, but the KMT went to Taiwan instead and bloodied their hands before giving the Taiwanese democracy. I don't think Chinese people are incapable of democracy, only that the circumstances didn't allow for it to happen; namely, a few civil wars, a communist revolution and a Japanese invasion.
Re:My Experience Working and Living in China by pertymcpert on Sunday March 13, 2022 @01:40AM (#30658582)
Right. So there doesn't seem to be an obvious reason why the PRC couldn't become democratic then. There's nothing special about China.
Re:My Experience Working and Living in China by bene_legionary on Sunday March 13, 2022 @03:38AM (#30658904)
There is the CCP. They've gone around indoctrinating everyone for 70 years that Mao was the messiah, Xi is Peter the apostle carrying on his vision, and western democracy doesn't work. Removing that would be a huge shock to the Chinese public (Destalinisation is an example of what happens when you remove the cults of personality), not to mention the existing power structures holding up the state would need to be reformed. I believe nothing short of another civil war will bring democracy to the PRC, and believe me, a civil war in China will be bad for the entire world. What I talked about before was before the CCP. Times were different, and the party that at least pretended to be democratic (the KMT, who proved themselves to not be democratic on Taiwan) had a chance to win the civil war. Today, there are a billion more people in China than when the KMT left, and not very many of them believe in democracy. It's not impossible, only mind-numbingly improbable.

Taiwan is a special case because it came after years of KMT oppression and the death of Chiang. His son was more lenient and then his son's successor opened the door for democracy. Taiwan is much smaller and had more exposure to America than the mainland, which definitely helped.