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Re:Russia to legalize software piracy by throwaway894345 on Monday March 07, 2022 @01:03PM (#30591146)
I'm not super fond of the notion of IP, and I have lots of criticisms of "the western IP regime"; however, it's incorrect to frame this as "imposing western IP regime" in any sense that implies that "imposing one's regime" is immoral. In other words, this is just a trade agreement, and all parties have the right to impose their conditions. Trade only ensues if both parties are content with the conditions. Arguing that one party's conditions are "imposing" while the other's aren't is nonsensical.

Your suggestion that the west should be required to trade with countries which don't respect western IP policies is actually an imposition insofar as it imposes on western nations' freedoms of association, but allowing countries to determine their own trade provisions isn't an imposition.

I'll hazard an analogy: if I refuse to debate certain people on the Internet who don't adhere to my rhetorical standards, am I "imposing my regime on everyone else" (and thus I should be required to debate everyone who wants to debate me)?

EDIT: significantly revised to (hopefully) improve clarity.

Re:Russia to legalize software piracy by liminvorous on Tuesday March 08, 2022 @05:51AM (#30598553)
Your point makes sense if you treat states as the relevant actors, but a free trade deal is actually normally about states aggreeing to not stop or impede their citizens from trading with each other, which I think flips it back to being a coercive relationship, though who is coercing who might change depending on the framing. I still tend to think the "imposing western IP regime" frame feels accurate to me, though I would call it "America imposing its IP regime on the rest of the world", perhaps not accurately.
Re:Russia to legalize software piracy by throwaway894345 on Tuesday March 08, 2022 @01:21PM (#30603612)
> a free trade deal is actually normally about states aggreeing to not stop or impede their citizens from trading with each other, which I think flips it back to being a coercive relationship

Coercion requires a threat to an actor's rights. In the case of nations, these rights can probably be summarized as territorial integrity and political independence. While there are powerful incentives to cooperate, these incentives aren't coercive as they don't intrude upon territory or political independence (including the ability to decide with whom and under which terms one trades).

I think it's a fine thing to criticize the western legal framework of IP and you can argue that the west shouldn't export this legal framework; however, I don't think there's any philosophically consistent way to argue that the export mechanism (mutually beneficial agreements, basically) is "coercive" except perhaps to indict any kind of mutually beneficial agreement.

Re:Russia to legalize software piracy by qsort on Monday March 07, 2022 @01:48PM (#30591711)
I completely agree with this, and I'm an abolitionist. We either abolish IP for everyone, or recognizing each other's IPs is the bare minimum for a trade agreement.
Re:Russia to legalize software piracy by q1w2 on Monday March 07, 2022 @04:22PM (#30593491)
Trade agreements usually begin with far more tangible and fundamental agreements to allow physical goods, stop tariffs, and allow for health/safety standards and inspections.

IP agreements are far more complex and are usually negotiated on top/after the initial agreement.

Re:Russia to legalize software piracy by anothernewdude on Monday March 07, 2022 @07:38PM (#30595179)
> Arguing that one party's conditions are "imposing" while the other's aren't is nonsensical.

You think modern trade agreements can't be coercive?

Re:Russia to legalize software piracy by throwaway894345 on Monday March 07, 2022 @11:04PM (#30596307)
Re:Russia to legalize software piracy by tekknik on Monday March 07, 2022 @10:37PM (#30596178)
> I'll hazard an analogy: if I refuse to debate certain people on the Internet who don't adhere to my rhetorical standards, am I "imposing my regime on everyone else" (and thus I should be required to debate everyone who wants to debate me)?

Yes, you’re forcing them to abide by your “rhetorical standards”. The point of debate to help someone see your point of view. Nowhere does it require abiding by a certain process. If so, one could make the argument that only those that have not taken logic and learned the proper way to debate can engage in such things. So yes, you’re forcing people to play by your rules, or you refuse to play. It’s actually quite a bit childish.

Re:Russia to legalize software piracy by throwaway894345 on Monday March 07, 2022 @11:02PM (#30596296)
You’re mistaken. Not debating someone isn’t a form of coercion.
Re:Russia to legalize software piracy by tekknik on Wednesday March 09, 2022 @07:18AM (#30613645)
Clearly.
Re:Russia to legalize software piracy by ClumsyPilot on Monday March 07, 2022 @08:41PM (#30595525)
"if I refuse to debate certain people on the Internet who don't adhere to my rhetorical standards, am I "imposing my regime on everyone else"

Thats a terrible analogie.

To argue that being cut off from the global economy is 'freedom of association' is like arguing that selling cocaine to children is 'just free market' and "honest business"

Countries are not people - if the rest of the world stops trading with UK, 60 milliom people starve. In some countries, people will freese to death without fuel. West imposed moderate sanctions on Russia, and economy is already collapsing.

Re:Russia to legalize software piracy by throwaway894345 on Tuesday March 08, 2022 @10:43AM (#30601105)
The analogy is as accurate as an analogy can be, but let's not debate analogies lest we get mired in pedantry. Let's talk about Russia: by not invading Ukraine and needlessly slaughtering civilians, Russia was able to enjoy the privilege of participation in a global economy and all of the entailed prosperity. When Russia chose to opt out of the global economy, its domestic economy predictably tanked. Sanctions are one of a few options at the west's disposal for preventing the slaughter of Ukrainian civilians without risking escalation toward a nuclear war.

Ideally Russians would understand that sanctions are a consequence of their government's murderous invasion and that they represent a mild inconvenience compared to the plight of Ukrainians--if a given Russian can't muster the courage to protest (yes, I understand protests are illegal, which makes those who do protest all the more commendable) then I hope he can muster the courage not to complain about sanctions (similarly I hope westerners can muster the courage not to complain about high gas prices and so on).

Re:Russia to legalize software piracy by ClumsyPilot on Tuesday March 08, 2022 @01:17PM (#30603531)
I am not trying to justify a hideous war, i am trying to demonstrate a point:

The threat of cutting off trade is an attempt to 'twist the arm' of a country. In this case its justified, cool. (Although some of them like banning Russian cat breeds, seem questionable)

But then why are posters above pretending that many countries, which signed up this IP regime under threat fo being cutoff from trade, didn't do that under duress?

Re:Russia to legalize software piracy by throwaway894345 on Tuesday March 08, 2022 @01:38PM (#30603943)
> But then why are posters above pretending that many countries, which signed up this IP regime under threat fo being cutoff from trade, didn't do that under duress?

Because most people reserve "duress" for a threat to one's rights. In the case of nations, these rights are generally territorial integrity (basically, the right not to be invaded or attacked) and political independence (the right to self-govern, including to choose with whom and under which terms a nation engages in trade or other treaties and alliances). While there are certainly powerful incentives for cooperation, it's incoherent to argue that exercising one's right to self-govern is coercive and thus out-of-bounds.