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Re:Ask HN: How can we fix Wikipedia? by thepasswordis on Saturday March 05, 2022 @11:17AM (#30568735)
From the first link:

>The Wikimedia Foundation defines racial equity as shifting away from Eurocentricity, White-male-imperialist-patriarchal supremacy, superiority, power and privilege to create an environment that is inclusive and reflects the experiences of communities of color worldwide.

What an interesting signaling statement. If you did not know what "racial equity" was, imagine trying to parse out what it is from that statement.

Imagine reading this phrase out loud to anybody not already involved in this debate. Would this help them understand what "racial equity" was? If you read this statement to any of my family or friends, who live in the middle of the country, they would probably conclude that this was some sort of racist propaganda thing, and wouldn't want to talk to whoever brought it up anymore.

I mean the fact that the foundation which is supposed to also be providing information to the world is also proudly publishing things like that should be pretty revelatory.

Re:Ask HN: How can we fix Wikipedia? by bavell on Saturday March 05, 2022 @12:08PM (#30569338)
Absolutely 100%. I can't tell you how many companies I've lost respect for because they've hopped on the virtue-signalling PR bandwagon. It couldn't be more obvious they don't even believe what they're saying but it's in vouge these days so they plow forward anyways. The added bonus of some casual anti-white/anti-european hatred is the cherry on top.
Re:Ask HN: How can we fix Wikipedia? by adhesive_wombat on Saturday March 05, 2022 @03:14PM (#30571437)
Interestingly, from the Universal Code of Conduct [1]

> Note: The Wikimedia movement does not endorse "race" and "ethnicity" as meaningful distinctions among people.

[1] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Universal_Code_of_Conduct

Re:Ask HN: How can we fix Wikipedia? by Mezzie on Saturday March 05, 2022 @01:35PM (#30570446)
I just always find it funny that 'Eurocentricity' is one of the problems, given the whole movement is AMERICA-CENTRIC as hell. We've even co-opted what being 'Eurocentric' means! Talk about arrogance!
Re:Ask HN: How can we fix Wikipedia? by thrashh on Saturday March 05, 2022 @01:19PM (#30570214)
I think waaay too many people are unknowingly hanging around other people they like too much and it causes their circle to double down on crazy.
Re:Ask HN: How can we fix Wikipedia? by phphphphp on Saturday March 05, 2022 @01:40PM (#30570497)
Your friends and family probably wouldn't participate in a debate about how to build an encyclopaedia that is representative of the world, not just the world according to a bunch of mostly middle class white nerds. If they did have an interest in such a debate, I am sure they would be capable of processing that statement.

There's nothing intellectually controversial about Wikipedia's statement, to argue against it on the basis that it's impossible to parse seems anti-intellectual rather than... actually challenging the content of the statement.

You may wish to argue that Wikipedia can simultaneously be an encyclopaedia that represents the world AND be an encyclopaedia mostly written by middle class white people, but that's a point that requires much more discussion than a hand-wavey statement about how this discussion isn't relevant to your friends and family.

Re:Ask HN: How can we fix Wikipedia? by thepasswordis on Saturday March 05, 2022 @04:00PM (#30571815)
If the content of the encyclopedia is meant to be a representation of objective facts, then why on earth could it matter what the race of the people writing it is?

This sounds like straight up Nazi propaganda. The idea that races are so different that we literally inhabit separate realities is insane levels of bigotry.

Re:Ask HN: How can we fix Wikipedia? by phphphphp on Saturday March 05, 2022 @04:28PM (#30572088)
The hyperbole isn’t helpful. As has been highlighted time and time again, Wikipedia is the work of a relatively small amount of people and there is a great deal of bias because humans suffer from bias — regardless of their intentions.

“History is written by the victors” is a famous phrase a reason — facts are a representation of the information we are most confident in, not truth.

Re:Ask HN: How can we fix Wikipedia? by _Nat_ on Saturday March 05, 2022 @04:49PM (#30572264)
"History's written by the victors" seems like a stretch that's only kinda truth-adjacent in some situations, e.g. where one side gets wiped out and there're no third-party observers, etc.. But, it doesn't hold in most cases, e.g. in World War 1 or 2, nor basically any modern war, where most of the losing side survives and tells its stories too. Heck, in the US, some folks complain about how much the loser of the American Civil War got to push its narratives. [From StackExchange's History site](https://history.stackexchange.com/questions/5597/is-history-... ).

Anyway, critique of that quote aside, how's it relevant to Wikipedia?

Re:Ask HN: How can we fix Wikipedia? by phphphphp on Saturday March 05, 2022 @04:56PM (#30572334)
The quote is relevant because it demonstrates that it is widely understood that history (“facts”) is not an absolute truth, but a collection of ostensibly-true pieces of information disseminated by one party.

To say that Wikipedia is not representative of its editors, is to say that history is not representative of the victors.

To pick an example of a group that is somewhat insular: if the majority of Wikipedia editors were Chinese, would Wikipedia look as it does today? Would Wikipedia be an equally-as-accurate reflection on the west as Wikipedia is today?

Re:Ask HN: How can we fix Wikipedia? by _Nat_ on Saturday March 05, 2022 @05:15PM (#30572483)
> To pick an example of a group that is somewhat insular: if the majority of Wikipedia editors were Chinese, would Wikipedia look as it does today? Would Wikipedia be an equally-as-accurate reflection on the west as Wikipedia is today?

There's a Chinese Wikipedia site: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Wikipedia

However, even the English-Wikipedia's articles on China are likely to be disproportionately influenced by Chinese posters, even if they're a minority of the overall contribution-base.

That said, what's the potential relevance here? Is this purely about articles on politics, or..?

Re:Ask HN: How can we fix Wikipedia? by oauea on Saturday March 05, 2022 @01:01PM (#30569997)
Sure does sound like racism to me, just like Reddit's stance that you can't be racist against white people.