Trapped in Silicon Valley’s hidden caste system

Re:Trapped in Silicon Valley’s hidden caste system by Bhilai on Tuesday March 01, 2022 @04:47PM (#30520482)

A lot of stuff mentioned in the article is true. I would even go ahead (at peril being downvoted by Indian patriots) that India is a deeply racist country. My parents, educated upper middle class working folks use to 'educate' me to not get married outside our caste and such. Caste system is deeply rooted in India and you can pretty much read about it from lots of sources online. India has a lot of right provisions (like the reservation system for SC/ST/OBC akin to affirmative action type of stuff in US if I am not mistaken) but in a typical fashion those provisions are either not applied properly or are abused by people in such categories. India is also a deeply poor country with a history of systemic racism so its not surprising some of the beliefs have landed in silicon valley too.

> Do you feel threatened when a coworker asks about where you are from? It's something I do ask from time to time (not during interviews obviously, but during lunch for example) out of pure curiosity. Should I stop?

I think its a fair question. Its not as much about where a person is from but "what caste they belong to" type of stuff that might be offensive.

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Re:Trapped in Silicon Valley’s hidden caste system by lisper on Tuesday March 01, 2022 @04:58PM (#30520618)

It would never even occur to me to ask someone what caste they were from, not just in Silicon Valley where I happen to live, but anywhere in the U.S. Seriously, who does that?

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Re:Trapped in Silicon Valley’s hidden caste system by AdmiralAsshat on Tuesday March 01, 2022 @05:17PM (#30520808)

It actually does occur to me, mostly because I'm curious if all of my coworkers are of Brahmin caste. It doesn't matter to me personally, but obviously it would be of interest if all of the people in the Managerial or Lead roles are from a certain caste, while all of the lower-level Devs are in another.

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Re:Trapped in Silicon Valley’s hidden caste system by JoeAltmaier on Tuesday March 01, 2022 @05:21PM (#30520844)

Couldn't that be a follow-on effect from a lifetime of advantages in education and opportunity costs? It's not necessary to imagine a special Brahmin-loving company administration.

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Re:Trapped in Silicon Valley’s hidden caste system by User23 on Tuesday March 01, 2022 @05:45PM (#30521076)

It’s also a general pattern that follows from human assortative mating. Then add to that inheritance laws and over the centuries the upper classes can acquire serious cumulative advantages. Of course it occasionally backfires, such as in the case of Habsburg inbreeding.

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Re:Trapped in Silicon Valley’s hidden caste system by AdmiralAsshat on Tuesday March 01, 2022 @05:38PM (#30521012)

Oh, definitely. It could be neither intentional nor malicious. But it would still be interesting to know.

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Re:Trapped in Silicon Valley’s hidden caste system by User23 on Tuesday March 01, 2022 @05:36PM (#30520993)

I worked at a big tech company where you could, with rare exceptions, reliably estimate a South Asian employee’s place in the org chart from skin tone. I don’t know how well that correlates to caste, but I imagine it does to at least some degree.

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Re:Trapped in Silicon Valley’s hidden caste system by belval on Tuesday March 01, 2022 @05:52PM (#30521146)

Someone who doesn't understand that it's taboo and is curious of a system that existed for 3000 years? I understand that it's a painful heritage for some but to an outsider this seems akin to genealogy for example.

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Re:Trapped in Silicon Valley’s hidden caste system by samizdette on Tuesday March 01, 2022 @05:17PM (#30520804)

I grew up around a lot of Indian people, and I have definitely had the curiosity to know how to ask, but at the same time known that it would be taboo. I can only guess from their wealth or their last names.

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Re:Trapped in Silicon Valley’s hidden caste system by wincy on Tuesday March 01, 2022 @05:22PM (#30520868)

Okay so curious, I have a South Indian neighbor who is Muslim. I assume Muslims are just a different thing outside of the caste system, despite people saying caste is not rooted in Hinduism? (I’m not saying it is, just curious how an Indian might view their Muslim neighbors).

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Re:Trapped in Silicon Valley’s hidden caste system by vishnugupta on Wednesday March 02, 2022 @01:14AM (#30524335)

Caste system of India is somewhat unique in the sense that it gets superimposed on almost every religion in India.

So no, Muslim/Islam religion hasn’t escaped caste trap in India. There are upper caste, lower caste etc. For instance, leather/tanning work is typically done by lower caste Muslims compared to say a merchant.

Let me further drive home my point. “Lingayat” is a religion created explicitly to be outside of caste system. To an extent they consider themselves to be of a different religion from Hinduism. Though superficially you can’t tell the difference because culturally they are very similar to Hinduism. But after a few centuries, Lingayats now have their own caste hierarchy. Almost parallel to Hindu caste system.

https://karepass.cgg.gov.in/CasteReport.do?actionParameter=C...

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Re:Trapped in Silicon Valley’s hidden caste system by selimthegrim on Tuesday March 01, 2022 @06:08PM (#30521308)

My Muslim grandfather grew up in what is now Indian state of Karnataka (Gulbarga). When he would touch metal utensils of neighboring high caste family, they would curse at him and wash them, so he would do it to wind them up every so often.

Although it's not always that straightfoward. In Gujarat, Muslims used to be able to "cancel" caste pollution - that is, if you touched a Dalit and then touched a Muslim you wouldn't have to purify yourself.

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Re:Trapped in Silicon Valley’s hidden caste system by belval on Tuesday March 01, 2022 @05:54PM (#30521172)

Seems to exist for Indian muslims as well: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caste_system_among_South_Asian...

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Re:Trapped in Silicon Valley’s hidden caste system by tsol on Tuesday March 01, 2022 @09:16PM (#30522870)

Anecdotally I believe it occurs in a much lower amount, I haven't seen it at all as an Indian Muslim. Still I don't deny that it happens, especially in areas with less education. By creed it doesn't make sense-- as a popular hadith says "no Arab is better than a non Arab and no white is better than a black, except by piety and good deeds". Of course this hasn't stopped the ignorant in the past(unfortunately)

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Re:Trapped in Silicon Valley’s hidden caste system by kamaal on Wednesday March 02, 2022 @01:08AM (#30524307)

Among muslims themselves its practically non-existent.

Speaking as a Muslim, the way the Indian society perceives us, we are the lowest of the lowest castes.

Muslims themselves perceive our layer as fairly flat. This is mostly because most muslims themselves have been caste refugees to a new religion(Islam) in the past. And for the better wouldn't want to go back to that history.

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Re:Trapped in Silicon Valley’s hidden caste system by thowaway_2mar on Wednesday March 02, 2022 @08:55AM (#30527314)

Not true, you maybe an "upper-caste muslim".

1 ) https://theprint.in/opinion/indias-muslim-community-under-a-...

2) https://www.opindia.com/2020/10/muslim-social-hierarchy-cast...

3) https://theprint.in/opinion/pasmanda-muslims-missing-from-po...

4) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lENVbLrJOQw

5) https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/we-need-a-caste-censu...

6) https://www.deccanherald.com/opinion/dilip-kumar-the-gardene...

7) https://thewire.in/caste/lower-caste-muslims-in-up-forge-new...

Emancipation of the Dalit Muslims hasn't yet occurred, Hindu-Muslim binary contributes to this oppression of Pasmanda and Dalit/ lower caste Muslims.

The oppressor can never understand the pain of the oppressed. How many lower caste Muslims ruled India? Why 90% of the Muslims politicians are upper caste ashrafs/syeeds? Ashraf hegemony must end.

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Re:Trapped in Silicon Valley’s hidden caste system by kamaal on Saturday March 05, 2022 @06:58AM (#30566718)

Im as lowest as lowest goes. Like whole family used to sleep in a small room, seen struggle for food and finished engineering with help of lots of people and scholarships.

Dad started with manual labor work, and things like cutting wood in forests when he started. Retired as a taxi driver.

Not seen any caste system in muslims, let alone discrimination of any kind. Looks like desparate attempt from Hindus to drag muslims into this just to be able to say 'Its not just us'.

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Re:Trapped in Silicon Valley’s hidden caste system by thowaway_2mar on Wednesday March 02, 2022 @09:00AM (#30527357)

^ Anecdotally I believe it occurs in a much lower amount, I haven't seen it at all as an Indian Muslim.

Just read the oppression Indian lower caste untouchable Muslims face in India.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pasmanda_Muslim_Mahaz

Upper caste dominant ashraf/sayeed Muslims in India have tried to label the people of the Mahaz as "un-Islamic heretics", which is a form of propaganda against them. Same is the case in Pakistan.

We all are Muslims and we don't have castes. Unless it's about an upper-caste Muslim woman marrying a lower caste untouchable muslim.

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Re:Trapped in Silicon Valley’s hidden caste system by azifali on Wednesday March 02, 2022 @01:43AM (#30524477)

Caste system exists in Muslims in India albeit at much lower levels than mainstream Indian Hindus. Muslims have been more steadily organizing as Sunnis, Shias and everyone else.

But invisible cultural barriers exist when it comes to language even though caste barriers have gone away.

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Re:Trapped in Silicon Valley’s hidden caste system by rdedev on Tuesday March 01, 2022 @07:29PM (#30521998)

There was a new story of a matrimonial ad that was asking for a groom for a gay man. It had a preferred caste for suitors. So yeah, it runs pretty deep in some corners of India

https://www.thehindu.com/news/cities/mumbai/matrimonial-ad-s...

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