Edit: i dont think projecting this back on the us is the right approach. The us showed its not ready to appease a country that sponsored dictators, assassinated journalists and enslaved its own citizens. I see a few germans here and there feeling guilt for what germany did to russia, but what about what germany did to east europe? It invaded those countries making them weaker for russia to take. East europe forgave german war reparation debts and now germany is barely doing anything. Where it the guilt for that?
Just check out where that sweet EU money is coming from. Think about where Eastern European people migrate to for work. Think about who is building factories and industry in these countries.
And many if these countries are in NATO, so Germany is literally willing to go to war for their protection.
Germany just can't win in this situation. Someone will always figure out a way to claim it's the Germans faults and that they still owe from WW2.
Germany is trying to be less militaristic because of WW2 and now Germanies victims from back them are complaining about Germany not being more militaristic.
What do you want them to be?
Where do the sweet german money come from? East Europe accounts for 15% of german exports.
This needs to stop really, we are all in this. There is no hate in having disagreements, as there is not hate in germany being proud of its economy.
But we are all in this together. We all depend on each other. And its fine to disagree but not when it comes to security and thats what i mean by germany not doing enough. I am not saying germany is a total slacker, i am saying we need to move fast and show unity. We’ll argue in the eu parliament thereafter and it wont be hate.
Edit: sorry, the only reason i brought ww2 into this is in reply to you bringing it and stating that germany dhows compassion towards russia for what it did in ww2 and i said but where is the compassion for east europe.
Germany is of colossal help to europe and is an undeniable positive player in european affairs. Period.
You are saying Germany isnt doing anything. When I point out what Germany is doing, you call it German superiority.
And then you end on German is important and positive.
What is it?
You ask Germany to act fast and unified, basically disallowing them to disagree about anything ever. We can argue in the parliament after? Aren't you supposed to find a common stance via discissions?
The whole thing is completely ridiculously focused on everyone else having an opinion what Germany is supposed to do, disregarding even so much as allowing Germany to think about it and completely ignoring everyone else.
France, Italy, Hungary and some others also opposed the SWIFT exclusion. Itlay tried to get Gucci handbags excluded from the sanctions for gods sake.
We are all in this together but God forbid Germany just spends an extra minute considering the effects of a certain sanction and God forbid Germany naivly tries to work towards peace by using diplomacy over weapons.
We are all in this together, unless Germany isn't immediately doing whatever anyone else wants, then we quickly remind them that they didn't pay for WW2.
Germany spends more than 50 bullion on its army every year, compared to Russia's 60. Now they are doing 3 times that. That money will be taken from schools, social services and taxes on the working class. How much more?
I suspect the americans had to take a lot of money from their schools to finance the marshall plan and the reconstruction of germany.
The british has a lot to spent yet they are rallying around the troops and telling their citizens their security starts in the forests of latvia and lithuania.
The east europeans have yet again money to take from schools to spend defending against russia and essentially shielding germany.
I think many germans are feeling pressure for the first time in their lives, and for the first time in modern german history they have to sacrifice comfort in order to do their part.
I agree its a sacrifice but i dont agree its the end of germany. If anything germany will come out stronger. A secure and stable east europe is directly in the benefit of germany.
Anyway i still dont see hatred, or injustice made to germany. No one’s threatening germany with sanctions, as it so often happens to east eu countries when they are out of line, and no one is saying germans are bad.
There is no contradiction in saying germany is great while saying germany can move faster. Just like i see no harm in your comment - indeed germany needs to take its time, its fine.
I am sorry if anything i wrote makes you think there is anti german sentiment - there is none!
And here we are with the "weak westerners" trope. I can't count the jokes about Germans being to soft to manage slightly colder rooms in the last two days. You perpuate this in the same comment I which you claim there is absolutely just pure love for Germany, nothing else.
And then the whole Germany isn't doing anything. They spend 50 billions on the military each year. The added another 100 billion on top now. They support all sanctions, including SWIFT.
Still not enough? Why? What else? Do you want them to march on Moscow again? Kill another 26 million Russians?
Why are you trying to act like all the negativity towards Germany does not exist? I'm not saying you hate Germany, I'm not saying everyone hates Germany, but just look around. Think about all the examples I gave you for a second. From the German perspective, they sure get a lot of shit for everything the do and not too much recognition either.
Nobody is even mentioning France and Italy, who were also opposed to SWIFT exclusion.
Remember, this discussion started by me saying that I don't see Germany loving the idea of a unified army, given the internal differences in the EU and the way many people from other countries like to hate on Germany. You have continuously just denied that. You think Germany and Poland can happily fight for freedom together, when in Poland that freedom does not extend to women with unwanted pregnancy? You think Germans want to die in the trenches for Orban, who is stealing their money? For people who are openly racist against Muslims? In a unified EU army, can I even trust that this army will always be used for defense? Or do I have to support Poland's phanasies of drowning refugees in the Mediterranean sea?
Don't get me wrong, standing together against Putin is easy and we are all in. But I don't think Germans want their soldiers be controlled via the EU, in which PIS and Orban would get a say one who they should kill.
I’ll stop this here because at no point have you criticised how germans and germany treat other europeans, making me think you are playing victim or simply trolling. I thought we were having a genuine debate.
It's easy for you to accuse me of not having a "genuine debate". From my perspective, you have continuously ignored all points I brought up.
Again, remember what we are discussing here: a unified EU army. My whole argument is that when I look at the way Germany is bashed by some EU countries, I don't know how the Germans will like that. Go ahead and rephrase: "If I look at the amount of disagreement between European countries, I don't see how many nations can be happy about a unified army."
Please, explain to me how Germans would feel when Orban and PIS have power over their soldiers? Again, easy when it is to fight against Putin. But what about the refugee situation? How can we fight for common values, when in Hungary and in Poland, the leaders are actively against freedom and promoting authoritarianism?
When Germany sent helmets to Ukraine, the whole world laughed at them. The Polish PM came to Germany and basically spat in Scholzes face. Now Germany is shipping weapons. In violation of German law, which states that Germany is not allowed to ship weapons to active war zones. A law that was made to ensure Germany would not repeat mistakes of the past.
Is it so hard for to acknowledge that Germany might have a hard time with all this stuff? Can you not see how the descendants of the Nazis, who swore themselves "never again", might have a hard time to jump back into being a military power? Can you not maybe try to empathize with people who, after they opened their borders to refugees have been met with harsh criticism from other countries, who are openly anti-muslim, now have hard time seeing these "shared values"? And can you maybe also understand why these people might be a little upset about how everyone constantly harks at them for "not doing enough", when in fact they are always on board with all sanctions and already have one of the biggest military budget in Europe?
And again, this is not about fighting Putin today, this is about the idea of unified EU army.
So what are you genuinely debating about? What is your point? My point is that a lot of people seem to want to tell the Germans what to do, whenever they don't the others suddenly remind them of unpaid Nazi debt, and when the Germans are unwilling to be a military power because of the same Nazi history, they are being ridiculed. And we are having this whole conversation here, where you basically deny the Germans right to feel a little annoyed by all this.
Although they're geographically between Russia and us, so there's that.
Anyway we can keep disagreeing all day about this. There is absolutely no hate towards germans or germany, i am not sure where this comes from. I imagine east europeans can also claim germans hate them for calling them cheap labour and the south europeans for calling them lazy and it would lead nowhere and so on.
Germany is part and parcel of a free european history and germans are loved. End of story.
Greeks called Merkel Hitler because of helping them with their debt. Poland and Hungary is raging against Germany because of them helping refugees since about 5 years now. Whenever there is any kind of disagreement, Poland brings up WW2 reparations.
Whenever a German voices concern about how their EU tax money is embezzled I Hungary, they are called arrogant.
I think its a bit hypocritical to claim germany is a victim. Arent germans all too happy to welcome refugees against eu member state concerns yet when east europeans travel to germany for work they are looked down upon? Aren’t germans all too happy to point out how lame all of these other eu countries are when they make mistakes?
We can spin in circles all day long and the only conclusion i can draw is that europeans replaced wars with insults and thats ok. I prefer this over invasions.
> I think its a bit hypocritical to claim germany is a victim.
Which I did exactly where?
> Arent germans all too happy to welcome refugees against eu member state concerns yet when east europeans travel to germany for work they are looked down upon?
Exactly, here we go. The most evil thing you can throw against Germany is that ... they helped refugees. And when east europeans travel to Germany for work they are looked down upon? I thought they were mostly getting paid! I thought the EU opened borders for people looking for work, well knowing that this puts pressure on the low wage workers in the richer countries.
> Aren’t germans all too happy to point out how lame all of these other eu countries are when they make mistakes?
Germany does, in fact, criticize other EU members for violating the EU contracts that they signed. Like when the Polish and Hungarian governments are hard at work and turning their democracies into authoritarian states modeled after Putins Russia.
> We can spin in circles all day long and the only conclusion i can draw is that europeans replaced wars with insults and thats ok. I prefer this over invasions.
Orban is Hungary for example is a despot quite similar to Putin and has been spending years of stealing EU money for him and his friends.
I don't feel like fighting in drenches for this guy. I would for many Hungarian people, but not really for the ones that are fostering hate against my Muslim neighbors or the ones that steal the EU money that is meant to prop up the Hungarian economy.
The german media also does a good job at creating an image of east europeans being criminal and south europeans being lazy.
As does the british media portray germany as a treacherous country.
But those are petty politics on all sides and not hatred. Hatred is declaring war and stating that your country shouldnt exist and denying that your people are a fake people.
Europe can only defend by sticking together. I am 100% sure that poland will go to war for germany in a heartbeat as would ANY country in nato and the eu.
But indeed we need to stop the petty politics of calling each other names and imposing diktats on allies.
Orbans corrupt and polands politics are lame, but no where near the danger we are facing. We’ll sort these two out and germany’s diktats in the eu parliament without tanks and bullets because we dont hate each other we just behave like the siblings that we are.
Germany demilitarized after WW2 and decided to use diplomacy and economic integration to ensure peace, instead of war. And they tried to play nice with Russia, after they killed 27 million Russians in WW2. Now everyone is acting like Putin going mad is Germany's fault. Now everybody wants Germany to be a military power again. The last two times they were, the world burned.
And yes, the German approach to reign in Russia failed. But so did the US approach of treating Russia as an enemy forever.