What's the "against Ukraine" viewpoint then? That what's Russia is saying is true and the Jewish prime minister is a Nazi?

Do keep in mind that I'm not exaggerating, that's literally what they did.

I think most people (mistakenly) would consider me "against Ukraine". I am American and against US military involvement in the conflict. I am for humanitarian support for Ukraine and against military aid.

I think the war is awful, and wish it weren't happening, but think the sooner it is over, the better for everyone involved.

I think that Russia has real concerns about eastward expansion of NATO, and NATO should stop expanding in the region.

As an aside, an interesting concept of the book 1984 was that people could be prevented from thinking against the state by removing the concepts themselves from the language.

One could conceivably be unable to develop a rational full perspective on events of any kind if they are never made aware of a subset of information.

> One could conceivably be unable to develop a rational full perspective on events of any kind if they are never made aware of a subset of information.

This is true but very uninteresting (of course if you're denied crucial information you can't build a holistic view). What's more interesting is: is it actually the case that information is being systemically and totally suppressed, for which there seems to be little evidence.

It also seems like you're trying to use this trivial truth to stealthily support an anti-ukraine position.

You are inferring that which I am not implying. I clearly said this was aside the parent and grandparent posts, as it was not in line with the original intent or content.

You're using HN guideline wording ("uninteresting") seemingly in preparation to flag my comment if I step outside of your box. And your final sentence can have a chilling effect on intellectual conversation.

If this is a "trivial truth" then why do so many people fail to grasp the connections between the work of fiction and the modern realities? Your world view perhaps takes it as a given, but people should be afforded the opportunity to reach realization well after the point that you yourself achieved it.

I was pointing it out because not everyone is aware that this is possible, and it hopefully creates an interesting perspective for someone on an otherwise flamebait comment. It's past the point of usefulness now, however, as the other post has been rightfully flagged.

edit: To go a bit further, my original comment does feel a bit off-topic on reflection. That is, of course, why these sorts of posts should simply be flagged and just move on. I should've avoided trying to dredge up some interesting conversation.

Additionally, I feel like your post would've been more interesting and encouraging of conversation had you simply stuck with the question "what evidence is there that this is occurring NOW though?"

I personally have no evidence this is happening, but the conversation would at that point be open to a third party contributing evidence if there were any.

Your comment is very vague; I know the views of both sides. When Putin decided to start the war, the arguments of anti-Ukrainians automatically lost their weight. You cannot fight using the argument of the Alley of Angels[0] if you kill civilians. Putin has already lost that part of his war.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alley_of_Angels

I have a friend who is "against Ukraine" so I asked them to explain to me because this is unthinkable for me, especially at this point. He said that Ukrainians were shelling Russian civilians since 2014. And this is true to a point - there have been a few cases of civilian casualties admitted by Ukraine (and of course there was a lot more by the Russian thugs). The point is, none of this would have happened if Putin hadn't decided to incite the war in Donbas.

Now, the mother of my friend lived there in Donbas in 2014. Since Russians took over the territory, at some point Ukrainians became unable to maintain the infrastructure, they effectively lost this land. But my friend had a lot of spite against the Ukrainian government for not providing basic amenities there anymore. Also no longer sending money like pension to people there. Which is debatable: since Russians took over the responsibility, why should Ukrainians be involved? But I understand the tragedy of individual people, without water, electricity and money, with constant fear of being shelled by either side and no refuge anywhere.

So this is how at least some Russians living in Ukraine see the situation. Maybe today a bit less, but still.

Another footnote is the Crimean water crisis after the Ukraine cut of the supply of fresh water following the annexation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Crimean_Canal#Branches

Also keep in mind that the Ukrainian government isn't all that great.

It's all very corrupt and the economy is far from free.

Of course, they don't deserve being invaded nor conquered by Russia either.

>The point is, none of this would have happened if Putin hadn't decided to incite the war in Donbas.

It would have been put down quickly without putin's help but the sentiment there was very real. It's among the most pro-russian areas of the whole ukraine and yanukovych was popular. Only a minority of people there were likely to be happy about the lurch towards Europe signified by the Maidan.

It has close industrial, commercial and cultural ties to Russia.

In a reverse scenario I could well see Lviv revolting.

Yes, that was also a bit surprised to me when I visited Crimea and discovered that practically all people Russians. Speaking only Russian, knowing only some words in Ukrainian, but only watching Russian TV, reading Russian papers, having most writings everywhere in Russian (or both languages) and feeling Russian. But none of them had any negative feelings toward Ukrainians (at that time), they were getting along in a normal way.

Then I went to Kiyv and and asked someone for directions in broken Russian. He said, "Why are you speaking Russian? We're in Ukraine, you can speak English for example". At this point I realized in the West of Ukraine there were already some tensions regarding the coexistence of these two groups.

I experienced a lot of good things both from Russians and Ukrainians and it breaks my heart to see how Putin is sending these poor guys from conscription and sends them as fodder meat. I hope there is at least one sane person around Putin and they do what others had been trying to do in such a situation[0] - but this time successfully.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_assassination_attempts...

Wait until you discover that in the United States practically all of the people speak only English, knowing hardly any words in Navajo.

Really, there are ethic Russians all over that part of Europe, the Baltics and even Poland. But that doesn't make them Russian nationals.