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Re:How old are democracies across the world? by marginalia_nu on Thursday February 24, 2022 @04:29PM (#30460560)
Right, but who gets to vote is just one aspect of it. Regardless of the fact more people get to vote in our democracy, our officials almost without exception are from a fairly small socioeconomic elite. This has changed remarkably little since universal suffrage some hundred odd years ago. Despite how a lot of people get to vote, not a lot of people get to rule.

The key difference, in Athens, is most political appointments were by random lot. It was literally a government by the people. No matter who you were, if you were eligible to vote, you could end up with political office. This is just not true with our modern democracies. Most people eligible to vote have no realistic path to political office.

Re:How old are democracies across the world? by groby_b on Thursday February 24, 2022 @06:00PM (#30461534)
I think you are confusing "eligible" and "get elected to the biggest, most visible positions".

Turns out, even in Athens, for the really big jobs they were kind of picky - dokimasia is an excellent filter to remove those you don't want. (Part of the process was questioning your "moral character", which is a pretty good proxy for "has an in with the powers that be").

And if we exclude high-visibility offices, there's a lot of people who can and do run in the US, for their local offices. School boards, city council members, commissioners, etc.

If we want to debate shortcomings of modern democracy, we might want to focus on the devaluation of local offices to the point of only focusing on national office.

Re:How old are democracies across the world? by watwut on Thursday February 24, 2022 @04:41PM (#30460708)
> No matter who you were, if you were eligible to vote, you could end up with political office.

Point is, this was rather small portion of population. And who you were, who parents were, mattered a lot in whether you was eligible to vote.

> This is just not true with our modern democracies. Most people eligible to vote have no realistic path to political office.

There is too many of us eligible.

Re:How old are democracies across the world? by marginalia_nu on Thursday February 24, 2022 @04:57PM (#30460857)
> Point is, this was rather small portion of population. And who you were, who parents were, mattered a lot in whether you was eligible to vote.

Sure, but what does voting matter if the options basically are the same?

> There is too many of us eligible.

Right, but I'll repeat the criticism you levied above. In modern democracy, who you are, and who your parents are, matters a lot in whether you are de facto eligible to hold office.

Re:How old are democracies across the world? by groby_b on Thursday February 24, 2022 @06:10PM (#30461614)
"In modern democracy, who you are, and who your parents are, matters a lot in whether you are de facto eligible to hold office."

The same as in Athens. Sure, you could throw your lot in, but... did you have the means to run for the office? Did you have supporters that "discouraged" other candidates from running?

The Athenians in office I can currently recall all came from rich or influential families. (I may well be wrong - my recall is certainly extremely spotty. I'd love pointers if anybody knows of an analysis on Athenian officials & their backgrounds)

Re:How old are democracies across the world? by watwut on Friday February 25, 2022 @05:26AM (#30465712)
> In modern democracy, who you are, and who your parents are, matters a lot in whether you are de facto eligible to hold office.

Exact same in Athens.