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Re:Nuclear-fusion reactor doubles record for energy made fro... by fpoling on Thursday February 24, 2022 @05:39AM (#30453193)
This was with previous designs of fusion reactors. Read about proposed Ark and currently constructing Spark reactors. By using stronger superconductive magnets it was possible to reduce the size of the plant by order of magnitude. Spark even has a chance to get to Q>1 before ITER and it’s chamber is less than 2m in diameter. Plus it is possible to replace its parts without disassembling the whole reactor.

[1] - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/SPARC_(tokamak)

Re:Nuclear-fusion reactor doubles record for energy made fro... by ncmncm on Thursday February 24, 2022 @05:59AM (#30453332)
That might be nice if they had solutions to the other problems not addressed (see above). But operating it will necessarily still be enormously more expensive than solar or wind, which cost practically nothing.

Somebody with one leg can do a lot better in a race than somebody with none, but that is not the measure to consider when the competition is with two-legged runners. (Hint: they win.)

Re:Nuclear-fusion reactor doubles record for energy made fro... by fpoling on Thursday February 24, 2022 @06:46AM (#30453648)
In Europe after the last autumn when for months there were little wind and cloudy sky there is a realization that energy based purely on renewables will require much bigger storage and much more solar or at least significantly more expensive solar that works under clouds. Doable, but cost is non-trivial.

So if any of fusion startups can make operating plant within the next 20 years, it can be used. But if that takes longer, then I agree that large-scale fusion will not happen.

Re:Nuclear-fusion reactor doubles record for energy made fro... by pfdietz on Thursday February 24, 2022 @07:17AM (#30453821)
Long term darkness/calm is solved with hydrogen. Europe has plenty of underground geology suitable for mass hydrogen storage (it's just like natural gas is stored.) Most of the energy still would go directly from solar/wind to the grid, or through efficient batteries, so the low round trip efficiency of power to gas to power doesn't matter much.
Re:Nuclear-fusion reactor doubles record for energy made fro... by jfk13 on Thursday February 24, 2022 @10:33AM (#30455838)
I suspect long-term, large-scale hydrogen storage is not "just like natural gas"... those pesky little H₂ molecules are awfully small, and may leak out rather easily compared to hydrocarbons.
Re:Nuclear-fusion reactor doubles record for energy made fro... by ncmncm on Thursday February 24, 2022 @06:09PM (#30461607)
Hydrogen storage is difficult only in metal tanks at high pressure and temperature. Store it underground or liquify it, and the problem dissipates.

Heating and lamp gas composed of of hydrogen and carbon monoxide (!) were once delivered throughout cities through cast-iron plumbing. That was displaced by "natural gas" as increasing numbers of people were found to have been asphyxiated after a lamp flame in their house died, typically from a pressure fluctuation.

Natural gas then had to have mercaptan odorants added after leaking gas accumulated undetected and exploded. Then, valves that would only stay open when hot came into regular use, for pilot lights. Now pilot lights are gone, replaced by spark generators. Hydrogen will displace natural gas in industrial settings, but synthetic methane or propane will probably be needed for domestic use.

Re:Nuclear-fusion reactor doubles record for energy made fro... by pfdietz on Thursday February 24, 2022 @02:05PM (#30458816)
There are already underground storage caverns for hydrogen, and more planned. It works fine.
Re:Nuclear-fusion reactor doubles record for energy made fro... by gmueckl on Thursday February 24, 2022 @09:30AM (#30455115)
If hydrogen is produced from electricity at scale, it won't be used for energy storage. It'll get sold to chemical plants first. They'll pay good prices.
Re:Nuclear-fusion reactor doubles record for energy made fro... by pfdietz on Thursday February 24, 2022 @09:36AM (#30455193)
Yes, surely that will be a major market. It just makes the case easier for renewables, as that's a major source of dispatchable demand that can smooth variation in renewable output without having to pay a cost for turning it back to electric power later.
Re:Nuclear-fusion reactor doubles record for energy made fro... by ncmncm on Thursday February 24, 2022 @06:10PM (#30461617)
And, anywhere it is used, it will also be stockpiled. And sold back whenever the spot price rises.
Re:Nuclear-fusion reactor doubles record for energy made fro... by fpoling on Thursday February 24, 2022 @03:17PM (#30459703)
Or to steel smelters.
Re:Nuclear-fusion reactor doubles record for energy made fro... by tsimionescu on Thursday February 24, 2022 @09:59AM (#30455466)
Electricity -> Hydrogen -> Electricity is insanely wasteful. If this is the only large scale long term storage we can come up with, we have a huge problem...
Re:Nuclear-fusion reactor doubles record for energy made fro... by pfdietz on Thursday February 24, 2022 @10:16AM (#30455641)
It would be a serious problem if hydrogen were used for diurnal storage. But for rare event backup, efficiency is really unimportant, since so little of the energy produced will go through that channel. What matters for use cases like that is minimizing capital cost, not maximizing efficiency.

I'll add that the alternative proposal, excess renewables with curtailment, has 0% efficiency on the curtailed power. Using that power for anything at all, including making hydrogen, is more efficient that just dropping it on the ground.

Re:Nuclear-fusion reactor doubles record for energy made fro... by ncmncm on Thursday February 24, 2022 @03:32PM (#30459883)
Hydrogen is so useful for so many other things that its (present) poor round-trip efficiency doesn't matter much. And, that efficiency will only ever get better, not worse, and will get better faster the more of it there is.

But hydrogen is very far from the only storage choice, it is just one that is attractive for numerous ancillary reasons: we need to make the hydrogen regardless, so might as well store it too.

Re:Nuclear-fusion reactor doubles record for energy made fro... by pfdietz on Thursday February 24, 2022 @07:24AM (#30453866)
You are making a commonly seen mistake there.

Yes, making magnetic fields stronger can give one higher power density than ITER. But one runs into a limit because of power density at the wall. Once you're at that limit, higher magnetic fields don't really help.

ARC's volumetric thermal power density (volume of reactor, not of the plasma) is just 1/40th that of the primary reactor vessel of a commercial pressurized water fission reactor.

60% of the mass of an ARC reactor is in the steel structural supports for the magnets, so it's about at the upper limit for steady magnetic fields in a fusion reactor.

Re:Nuclear-fusion reactor doubles record for energy made fro... by panick21_ on Thursday February 24, 2022 @06:28AM (#30453518)
Compare that to a simple molten salt fission reactor. It will simply never be cheaper.
Re:Nuclear-fusion reactor doubles record for energy made fro... by fpoling on Thursday February 24, 2022 @06:38AM (#30453593)
Molten solt reactors do not solve the problem of nuclear waste. It is very expensive to deal with it as it has to be stored for hundreds of years unless some technology would appear to separate that cheaply. Fusion produce like order of magnitude less radioactive waste which will be short-lived.

Plus a fusion plant can be very quick to start and shutdown or throttle down which is very useful for base load.

Re:Nuclear-fusion reactor doubles record for energy made fro... by panick21_ on Thursday February 24, 2022 @07:03AM (#30453749)
Molten salt reactors inherently don't. But you can burn up higher actinides resulting in waste that only needs to be stored a few 100 years and pose very little danger even in the most absurd scenarios.

You don't need to separate all the different parts. You reprocess our old waste into fuel for modern reactors. In those reactors higher actinides will be burned up. And the resulting output does not have higher actinides and only needs to be stored as long.

Moltex Energy is currently engaged with the Canadian regulator for such a facility, the process is called WATSS. Doing this is actually cheaper then the deep storage storage facilities proposed in many countries. Sadly because of political bullshit reprocessing has been made illegal in the US.

Such things would have been doable decades ago, and the money for it is already on bank accounts in most countries. But politician force the 'dig a hole for everything' solutions instead.

> Plus a fusion plant can be very quick to start and shutdown or throttle down which is very useful for base load.

Next generation fusion would also be very reactive to changes. Far more then traditional.

But the reality is you actually want to run full power as much as you can, no matter if fission or fusion.

Re:Nuclear-fusion reactor doubles record for energy made fro... by pfdietz on Thursday February 24, 2022 @07:19AM (#30453834)
Nuclear waste is not the major problem with fission, capital cost is.

Fusion solves a minor problem of fission while making the major problem worse. It's a great example of misplaced focus.

Cooling down the magnets of a fusion plant is not a quick process, btw. Hell, just getting a fusion plant built with RAFM steel up to operating temperature is a delicate process. Once irradiated, the temperature window that material can operate at is rather narrow (300 C to 550 C; below that it's too brittle and above that it creeps.)

Re:Nuclear-fusion reactor doubles record for energy made fro... by panick21_ on Thursday February 24, 2022 @07:31AM (#30453911)
Exactly, capital cost of large civil engineering project and the financing of that is actually the driver of the cost.

If you can build a nuclear plant with 500MW output and reduce the amount of concrete needed by significant factor, all of a sudden your are quite competitive.

Just for comparison, this is one of the furthest along commercial GenIV projects designs:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1pZC_ajI8Hs

No massive cooling towers. No gigantic containment cylinder. No gigantic low-pressure steam turbine.

In a PWR the core containment vessel is incredibly expensive and can only be built a few places, but its actually not the cost driver. Even so, compare to those, modern GenIV core vessels are vastly cheaper.

Not having to weld 8 inch gigantic steel vessels is far easier. See:

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/OgTgV3Kq49U/maxresdefault.jpg

Re:Nuclear-fusion reactor doubles record for energy made fro... by ncmncm on Thursday February 24, 2022 @07:20PM (#30462220)
And, not building them at all is easier yet. And, massively cheaper.