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Re:Grocery delivery “dark stores” in Amsterdam by lucb1e on Sunday February 20, 2022 @01:24PM (#30407943)
At the same time, I'd much rather have electric transportation devices strewn across the street, than cars (especially the smoking kind) on the street rushing by all day long as they currently are. The number of accidents with these 1000kg blocks of aluminium (more if it's electric) or their energy needs for individual whims... we're going to be 8 billion people soon, smaller individual transport is not a bad thing. If something needs to be done about the placement, well, we have plenty of space over if we could convert even just 50% of the roads to something other than broad slabs of obstruction-free flat space.

(Edit: I'm not the downvoter. I don't agree but that doesn't make it a nonuseful perspective.)

Edit#2: Observing the votes on this comment, presumably from car lovers/haters, is quite interesting. Not sure it's a good sign if I wrote engaging but not generally agreeable content.

Re:Grocery delivery “dark stores” in Amsterdam by consp on Sunday February 20, 2022 @01:41PM (#30408115)
If those things would be operated like bikes/scooters people own themselves sure as that usually means some form of restraint. The problem is that these are not and are put in places where the do not belong like in front of doors or the middle of the curb blocking the path for everyone. People don't care and the businesses use public space like it's their own parking space to the detriment of others and there is little to no penalty for abuse.

That is a general problem with the ride sharing with small transportation as well as with these stores: As long as you only reap the benefits it's less likely to see the problems associated and felt by others.

Re:Grocery delivery “dark stores” in Amsterdam by lucb1e on Sunday February 20, 2022 @02:46PM (#30408663)
> People don't care and the businesses use public space like it's their own parking space to the detriment of others

That's what we have laws for. Right now they're insufficient because the phenomenon is new and not widespread enough to urgently overhaul things for.

Just because, right now, there are problems and some people exploit the legal situation, that doesn't mean this is how it will always need to be if we are to keep small electric personal transportation devices as a concept.

Re:Grocery delivery “dark stores” in Amsterdam by Freak_NL on Sunday February 20, 2022 @01:51PM (#30408210)
Except that these app-rental bicycles, mopeds, and scooters don't actually replace cars. They reportedly replace use of public transport, privately owned bicycles, and just walking. They appear to be a net-negative to society in their current incarnation.

Cars are way too dominant, even here in bicycle-friendly Netherlands, but these app-rental things don't change anything on that front.

Re:Grocery delivery “dark stores” in Amsterdam by lucb1e on Sunday February 20, 2022 @02:29PM (#30408499)
> They reportedly replace use of public transport

Because most people still use a car for anything further than a few streets away, presumably. I'm not going to electric-scooter my way from Roermond/Weert to Eindhoven every day but I know a lot of people that drive or train-ride that distance daily (pre-pandemic).

Can't it be considered public transport as well if they're owned by a transportation company, to be used by the public, and not an individual? Right now it'll fall outside of laws that require things like accessibility for sure, but that's bound to change if this takes over as a better alternative to crowded buses.

If you have a link and/or some keywords I'd also be curious to read your source material btw!

Re:Grocery delivery “dark stores” in Amsterdam by Freak_NL on Sunday February 20, 2022 @03:31PM (#30409019)
> Can't it be considered public transport as well if they're owned by a transportation company, to be used by the public, and not an individual?

Sure. But then you would have something that is actively managed and planned by the local municipal government (implemented by a commercial or semi-governmental public transport company). It wouldn't look like the current mess where coverage is decided exclusively on the basis of profitability, multiple companies battling for dominance in the same area, and externalities such as misuse of public space left completely unaddressed (because not technically illegal).

A proper solution that could be considered part of public transport would have rentable (e-)bicycles with fixed terminals to retrieve and return from/to. Like Citybike Wien or StadtRAD Hamburg.

> If you have a link and/or some keywords I'd also be curious to read your source material btw!

I read it in a column in NRC, the source referred to is this report by the Amsterdam municipality:

https://docplayer.nl/221773234-Tussentijdse-rapportage-deelv...

Re:Grocery delivery “dark stores” in Amsterdam by lucb1e on Sunday February 20, 2022 @05:22PM (#30409817)
Just one little note, not to disprove your argument or anything, but there's this little paragraph in the middle of the report:

> In de open antwoorden wordt door gebruikers meerdere keren aangegeven dat het openbaar vervoer wordt gemeden vanwege besmettingsgevaar.

("In the open answers, multiple users indicate public transport is being avoided due to the contagion risk.")

So it's also partially a covid thing, but yeah I don't expect that this will be the majority. Personal transport is favored over mass transport by virtually everyone after all, everything else being equal.

Also interesting in relation to sibling comments is this part:

> Fout en hinderlijk parkeren is een vast onderwerp op de reguliere overleggen tussen gemeente en aanbieder. In de vergunnings-uitvraag is specifiek gevraagd om een klachtenafhandelingsplan. De vergunning verplicht de aanbieders om binnen een bepaalde tijd klachten af te handelen, waarbij beide aanbieders in hun klachtenafhandelingsplan hebben aangegeven dit nog sneller dan de gemeentelijke criteria te doen. In de eerste voortgangsrapportage (15 januari 2021) werd duidelijk dat dit door aanbieders is gehaald.

Loosely translated: incorrect parking is always an item on the agenda between municipalities and service providers. The permit to operate the service requires a complaint procedure to be in place and the processing speed requirements from the municipality were more than met in the first evaluation.

People seem to keep bringing this up, saying the scooters are a curse that would be eradicated from their city if it were up to them, not even considering that there could possibly be a fix for this. Well...

Re:Grocery delivery “dark stores” in Amsterdam by Freak_NL on Monday February 21, 2022 @03:17AM (#30413169)
The complaints procedure entails reporting each and every misplaced bicycle/moped to the rental company. Complaining works in that they do act on it (the thing is moved out of the way), and that they can then prove to the municipality that their complaints procedure works. But it is also (perhaps counter intuitively) completely pointless. These things are moved about all the time, being rented and used or just redistributed. I.e., if you do nothing, a misplaced moped will be moved as well — and another one parked right in the middle of the sidewalk a little later.

The problem is not that any specific moped is blocking the sidewalk for days on end, it is that there always some or several mopeds doing so — the mopeds involved vary, the problem doesn't.

Actually penalizing riders who misplace them might work, but there is no indication that the complaints procedures actually leads to these companies doing that (it is not a transparent process). They will pick out the worst offenders of course, but the people who rent these things are their paying customers; the rental companies have no economic incentive to actually punish the rider who put it there, quite the opposite!

Re:Grocery delivery “dark stores” in Amsterdam by lucb1e on Monday February 21, 2022 @03:07PM (#30419957)
True, good points