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Re:Tell HN: YouTube and how my wife lost 7 years of work by Ekaros on Saturday February 19, 2022 @07:31PM (#30401962)
We need education. Education to regular people that unless you have a contract with clear clauses and payments involved your data is worth what you pay.

Your expectations from free service should be zero. It can go out of business at any time. Or they can stop offering it at anytime.

Re:Tell HN: YouTube and how my wife lost 7 years of work by foxfluff on Saturday February 19, 2022 @07:50PM (#30402088)
> Your expectations from free service should be zero.

So it's ok if someone takes your car the next time you park on a free parking lot?

It doesn't work that way in the physical world. I don't see why it should work that way in the digital world. Offering to hold your property for free isn't a license to steal or destroy it.

Re:Tell HN: YouTube and how my wife lost 7 years of work by Ekaros on Saturday February 19, 2022 @07:52PM (#30402104)
Cities already move your vehicle away if you leave it in free parking spot for years, even faster if it is unregistered for example. I don't see how that is any different from this case for example. There are similar analogies.
Re:Tell HN: YouTube and how my wife lost 7 years of work by foxfluff on Saturday February 19, 2022 @07:55PM (#30402133)
I think the difference is that the extent to which a city can do things with your property is governed by law. And it is not in any way similar analogy; this wasn't cleaning up an abandoned account taking up public space, this was a sudden takedown of an active account that did not violate any rules or laws.
Re:Tell HN: YouTube and how my wife lost 7 years of work by Ekaros on Saturday February 19, 2022 @07:59PM (#30402157)
And why shouldn't they have right to remove such content? Clearly it wasn't following intent of the site. And the user didn't really lose anything, as they still have the originals. Which in no way have been affected.
Re:Tell HN: YouTube and how my wife lost 7 years of work by foxfluff on Saturday February 19, 2022 @08:28PM (#30402332)
> And why shouldn't they have right to remove such content?

They should, but they should also clearly communicate what content they consider acceptable and I think they should also notify the user and give them time to move their things out if G decides the content is deemed unacceptable. Especially if the content is not obviously and egregiously violating the terms of service and hasn't been considered a problem for the past seven years. Pulling the rug like that all of a sudden isn't cool.

If I offer to hold your grocery bag while you go to the restroom, do you think it's OK for me to throw it all away because after digging aronud a bit, I notice you have bought apples I don't like? What if I've been repeatedly extending the same courtesy for the past ten years and never had a problem with these apples until today? What if I advertise myself as a free bag holding service by the entrance to the restroom?

I think people should have the expectation that if a company (or individual) offers a service and holds on to your property (be it digital or physical), they should treat it responsibly and not just trash it all out of the blue.

> Clearly it wasn't following intent of the site.

That does not seem clear at all based on a reading of youtube's policies.

> And the user didn't really lose anything, as they still have the originals.

That's not something Google can decide or verify. Instead, they could help the user move their stuff out and that would ensure they still have everything.

But I like this line of arguing; I think copyright infringement is ok because the copyright holder still has their original copy which has in no way been affected.

Re:Tell HN: YouTube and how my wife lost 7 years of work by SamoyedFurFluff on Saturday February 19, 2022 @08:15PM (#30402261)
My understanding is in this case the user doesn’t have the originals; they’ve truly lost 7 years of labor.
Re:Tell HN: YouTube and how my wife lost 7 years of work by baash05 on Sunday February 20, 2022 @01:31AM (#30403702)
That's on them though. I mean a DVD burner and a shoe box would remove all backup issues here.
Re:Tell HN: YouTube and how my wife lost 7 years of work by metabagel on Saturday February 19, 2022 @08:25PM (#30402317)
You haven’t bothered to carefully read the post.
Re:Tell HN: YouTube and how my wife lost 7 years of work by Ekaros on Sunday February 20, 2022 @05:12AM (#30404632)
I did read it. And I consider value of data lost to be exactly zero as originals were not deemed worth saving. So I see no issues with Youtube's actions here. The user did not value their data so neither should Youtube.
Re:Tell HN: YouTube and how my wife lost 7 years of work by softwarebeware on Saturday February 19, 2022 @11:48PM (#30403290)
> So it's ok if someone takes your car the next time you park on a free parking lot?

Not the best analogy since the parking lot is just an empty physical space. Taking it away wouldn’t also “delete” your car. The car is actually a separate physical object. But in a cloud drive, the file and the space are the same. Taking away the space is obviously going to take away the file.

On top of all that, the file still exists elsewhere for most people.

Re:Tell HN: YouTube and how my wife lost 7 years of work by tkiolp4 on Sunday February 20, 2022 @08:14AM (#30405420)
> Offering to hold your property for free isn't a license to steal or destroy it.

Unless explicitly stated. And we all know that: 1) most of the internet users don’t read the Terms of Service, and 2) YouTube probably states in their Terms of Service doc that they can do whatever they want with your data (I don’t know this for sure because of point 1)

Re:Tell HN: YouTube and how my wife lost 7 years of work by yobbo on Sunday February 20, 2022 @03:33AM (#30404208)
> next time you park on a free parking lot?

The closest analogy is; if you park without paying, your car might get impounded.

Re:Tell HN: YouTube and how my wife lost 7 years of work by Linosaurus on Sunday February 20, 2022 @05:55AM (#30404809)
> impounded

Not a bad analogy. Getting an impounded car back is often described as being abusively expensive beyond real costs.

That would be a improvement for the OP.

Though I don't think any of the giants have an incentive to offer this since might draw more attention than just telling them to fuck off.

Re:Tell HN: YouTube and how my wife lost 7 years of work by iforgotpassword on Sunday February 20, 2022 @04:20AM (#30404388)
So you are saying uploading to YouTube without paying is illegal? Nowhere on YouTube does it say that I have to pay anything.
Re:Tell HN: YouTube and how my wife lost 7 years of work by root_axis on Sunday February 20, 2022 @12:24AM (#30403437)
I find it ironic that rather than avoid these pernicious companies people instead want to enshrine them as permanent fixtures into our society by legislating universal access to them. It would be analogous to passing a law that would guarantee free doses of heroin during the opioid crisis. We need to break the addiction, not exacerbate it.
Re:Tell HN: YouTube and how my wife lost 7 years of work by foxfluff on Sunday February 20, 2022 @07:26AM (#30405162)
Generally speaking I agree.. but having observed human behavior long enough, I don't think it's realistic to break that addiction. People are attracted to free services like flies are to manure, and often these free services are advertised with a huge budget and hype, and often come with network effects (~all of your friends and family are using said free service). Nobody reads the ToS, nobody cares about the implications of trusting their data to someone who doesn't care.. year after year we have these reports of people getting burned by the big G and still people keep using Google and acting surprised when they screw you over.

It seems to be human nature, and also nature of the market. It's the digital equivalent of race to the bottom. The shortsighted, uninformed, apathetic, and irrational people outnumber those who care, by a huge margin. "Just educate people" isn't happening any more than we can just tell people to "git gud." And that is why, in the physical space, we have laws that offer people some protection against terrible products that are unfit for purpose, unsafe, broken, etcetra. We wouldn't need those laws if we could just fix people and make them informed & rational; in that case, the market would truly sort out itself. It's just not happening, and it's also not happening in the digital space, so it's very possible we're going to see the same laws in the digital space.

Re:Tell HN: YouTube and how my wife lost 7 years of work by metabagel on Saturday February 19, 2022 @08:24PM (#30402308)
This is completely wrong. We should expect more from business. You should always be able to extract your data, period. Let’s not defend customer-hostile business models.
Re:Tell HN: YouTube and how my wife lost 7 years of work by Ekaros on Sunday February 20, 2022 @05:11AM (#30404625)
So let's say some startup runs a back up service with unlimited data. How many exabytes should a user be able to upload random data to them? And how long should it be available?
Re:Tell HN: YouTube and how my wife lost 7 years of work by ghusbands on Sunday February 20, 2022 @06:54AM (#30405035)
Always jumping to the extreme is tiresome. Plenty of disclosure laws have facility for covering reasonable or excessive costs.