News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Green steel without green hydrogen – can it work? by jillesvangurp on Tuesday February 15, 2022 @11:54AM (#30349084)
So, all you need is a bunch of batteries or other storage plus some links to back up power supply from the grid (wind, hydro, geothermal, etc.).

Hydrogen is basically just a really inefficient battery. Nice if you really need it for e.g. energy density reasons but basically sub-optimal for other things.

The challenge with hydrogen hydrogen is energy losses in producing it are about 3-4x (so use 4 kwh of electricity to produce 1kwh of hydrogen). And then you lose more actually burning it. And storing and transporting it add to those losses. Using the electricity directly for heating the iron/steel is much more efficient and potentially a lot more cost effective since you effectively use at least 3-4x less MWH. That's a lot of cost savings. And those can finance a lot of batteries and other solutions.

Re:Green steel without green hydrogen – can it work? by sbierwagen on Tuesday February 15, 2022 @02:11PM (#30351218)
I've seen a couple articles which push hydrogen but with economics that don't make sense for "green" hydrogen. (Produced by electrolytic cracking of water with solar power)

Instead these are advertisements for "blue" hydrogen-- cracking natural gas and then injecting the CO2 back into the ground. It's a campaign by fossil fuel companies to preserve some of the value of their capital base, rather than just being shut down entirely. Blue hydrogen will be a lot cheaper, at the cost of fossil emissions from methane and CO2 that escape from the equipment or leak from the wellhead.

Re:Green steel without green hydrogen – can it work? by ZeroGravitas on Tuesday February 15, 2022 @02:18PM (#30351302)
There's no economics in which blue hydrogen is cheaper than green hydrogen.

So it's basically just good old fashioned lies.

Re:Green steel without green hydrogen – can it work? by _hypx on Wednesday February 16, 2022 @12:02AM (#30356541)
It takes ~1.33 kWh to make 1 kWh of hydrogen.
Re:Green steel without green hydrogen – can it work? by ncmncm on Tuesday February 15, 2022 @12:16PM (#30349388)
Hydrogen has many other uses than for energy storage. And, when top-line energy production gets cheap enough, round-trip losses come to matter less than other things, such as raw usefulness.

Hydrogen is directly useful in electrical synthethis of methane and ammonia, besides myriad current industrial uses, and, as LH2, is disruptive as an aviation fuel: LH2 aircraft will be impossible to compete with, wherever they are available.

Re:Green steel without green hydrogen – can it work? by pfdietz on Wednesday February 16, 2022 @08:52AM (#30359910)
LH2 has very low density, so it cannot be used in an aircraft that looks like what we're currently using. I suspect synthetic hydrocarbons will be used instead. Hydrogen is likely essential in making those.

Low density is also a big reason why using LH2 in the first stage of a rocket launch vehicle is a dumb idea.

Re:Green steel without green hydrogen – can it work? by ncmncm on Wednesday February 16, 2022 @12:56PM (#30363260)
It will need new airframes and new cryo infrastructure, which is why it has been slow to happen. Once it does, building out will take a long time. But the competitive benefits are big enough to move a lot of activity.

In the meantime, we will need synthetic hydrocarbons, using captured carbon, for extant airframes. It will need to get (or be made, through carbon taxes) cheaper than the mined, refined, and transported stuff.

Having a big hydrogen synthesis infrastructure in place feeding hydrocarbon synthesis will then ease the transition off of hydrocarbons, as equipment that can use hydrogen directly comes online. Stationary uses will come first, displacing natural gas electric generation.