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Re:Turbine “torture” for Greek islanders as wind farms proli... by black_puppydog on Friday February 11, 2022 @10:58AM (#30302905)
I just had to check this and with a bit of clicking around and searching I think I found most of the areas the article is writing about.

If you really want to, click this link: https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/1fZE (but be gentle because I don't know how well the overpass APIs scale...)

Here you can see the northernmost turbine in the area, the one also closest to Petries, mentioned in the caption of the top picture:

https://i.imgur.com/8rBjHbp.png

That's here:

http://umap.openstreetmap.fr/en/map/mesure-distance_315118#1...

That's just about 660m away from the next village. That's starting to be uncomfortably close in terms of noise indeed. Way to make sure you'll have justified opposition right there. *sigh*

I'm not very sympathetic to the visual complaints -- car infrastructure already ruins many a landscape, I actually don't mind the turbines -- but the noise argument I agree with; proper distance (adapted to the geography) must be maintained.

Edited to fix overpass link

Re:Turbine “torture” for Greek islanders as wind farms proli... by amatecha on Friday February 11, 2022 @12:42PM (#30304412)
I was curious about this subject and found a video[0] of a couple whose house is about the same distance (1600 feet or 487 meters)... In this case the turbine even casts a shadow on their home and property which is SUPER jarring.

I'm not sure people realize but wind turbines are pretty darn loud (check at 2:55 in the video), that's exactly what they sound like at times. There's honestly zero excuse to build something that loud anywhere within audible range of peoples' homes.

[0] https://invidious.snopyta.org/watch?v=f7DQ3SgSg0c

Re:Turbine “torture” for Greek islanders as wind farms proli... by 8bitsrule on Friday February 11, 2022 @06:32PM (#30308306)
Found that video working on Youtube using the same 'v=' code. At one point (2:50) the video (attributed to the 'Allegheny Highlands Alliance'[0]; executive producer an M.D.) plays a sound labelled 'turbine noise during winter'. It's very loud ... I wouldn't spend an hour in that noise.

But was the noise recorded near the turbine(s)? And considering the turbine(s) are 530 yards (almost 1/3 mile) away from the home, those shadows falling on the building could only occur briefly near sunrise and sunset.

Here are some decibel readings at an equivalent distance from a turbine site in England. 4 to 6 dB is a lot less noisy than the AHA video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKgN2G9d0dc

[0] https://alleghenyhighlandsalliance.org/

Re:Turbine “torture” for Greek islanders as wind farms proli... by amatecha on Saturday February 12, 2022 @12:41AM (#30310289)
Having gone offroading near wind turbines, depending on some conditions (I don't know if it's wind, temperature, or what), they really do sound like that, and for quite some distance. The one depicted in that video is WAY too close to any home. The fact it was approved/OK'ed absolutely blows my mind. I should dig up my videos of being up in the mountains near the wind turbines... though it's tough for any video to accurately convey the level of audible disturbance, of course.
Re:Turbine “torture” for Greek islanders as wind farms proli... by msrenee on Saturday February 12, 2022 @09:44AM (#30313153)
As far as the shadow, I don't care enough to do the math, but they are exceptionally tall. It's trippy when you stand under one. Google gives me about 90 meters tall for some of the modern ones. I'd imagine they could cast a shadow a pretty long distance.
Re:Turbine “torture” for Greek islanders as wind farms proli... by NobodyNada on Friday February 11, 2022 @05:04PM (#30307563)
That link didn't work for me (returned a 403), apparently it's just a weird YouTube link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7DQ3SgSg0c&t=175
Re:Turbine “torture” for Greek islanders as wind farms proli... by amatecha on Friday February 11, 2022 @05:27PM (#30307768)
Yeah, Invidious[0] is an alternative front-end for YouTube so you can avoid ads & tracking. Another host: https://invidious.privacy.gd/watch?v=f7DQ3SgSg0c

[0] https://invidious.io/

Re:Turbine “torture” for Greek islanders as wind farms proli... by tqi on Saturday February 12, 2022 @02:14AM (#30310625)
...to avoid tracking I should click on a sketchy download pop-up?
Re:Turbine “torture” for Greek islanders as wind farms proli... by amatecha on Sunday February 13, 2022 @10:26PM (#30328066)
"Sketchy download popup"? Not sure what you're talking about. I see no such popup (nor any popup/modal/interstitial/ad/interruption of any sort) on either site I linked. Viewed from two different OSes and browsers.
Re:Turbine “torture” for Greek islanders as wind farms proli... by tqi on Sunday February 13, 2022 @11:09PM (#30328274)
iOS Safari, I get a popup that says "Do you want to download 'watch'?"
Re:Turbine “torture” for Greek islanders as wind farms proli... by amatecha on Wednesday February 16, 2022 @05:04PM (#30366406)
Hrm, strange. Tried on iOS and didn't encounter that. However, the fact it's trying to download "watch" (which is the path of the page in the URL) leads me to suspect there was a server issue that caused it to return the page as a file instead of actually serving it as a normal HTML page. /shrug
Re:Turbine “torture” for Greek islanders as wind farms proli... by pasabagi on Friday February 11, 2022 @02:42PM (#30306098)
How does that compare in dB to a road?

PS: checked it out myself, from some light googling:

Road decibel levels are about 55 dB (averaged over a day) for about 30% of the EU population.

Wind turbines are supposedly 43 decibels if they are within a few hundred meters of a house. I guess it probably varies a lot depending on the turbine in question.

Re:Turbine “torture” for Greek islanders as wind farms proli... by themaninthedark on Friday February 11, 2022 @03:15PM (#30306468)
Difference is that road noise would be varying and mostly abate at night. Wind turbine noise would be constant with wind speed at all hours.
Re:Turbine “torture” for Greek islanders as wind farms proli... by pasabagi on Friday February 11, 2022 @03:43PM (#30306755)
On the other hand, roads are dirty, polluting, and occasionally kill your cat.
Re:Turbine “torture” for Greek islanders as wind farms proli... by coldtea on Friday February 11, 2022 @05:22PM (#30307717)
On the other other hand, those islands and places didn't have any significant traffic.

So, it's not like an additional similar noise to what they've been used to, just less polluting and dangerous for their cat. It's a new noise level they're forced to put up with.

Re:Turbine “torture” for Greek islanders as wind farms proli... by mlac on Friday February 11, 2022 @05:23PM (#30307723)
Fans occasionally kill your birds and the neighborhood bald eagle.
Re:Turbine “torture” for Greek islanders as wind farms proli... by coldtea on Friday February 11, 2022 @05:20PM (#30307704)
>How does that compare in dB to a road?

Even if it compared it wouldn't make it much better, because those islands don't have any sizable traffic on roads - and almost insignificant near those villages.

So, its like suddenly they have to put up with road-level noise (if not worse), on their remote village in some remote island - and not even from their own cars.

At those distances it's like suddenly all around your village there's a airconditioner-level noise... Mighty annoying to people who have enjoyed mostly nature-level silence for all of their lives...

Re:Turbine “torture” for Greek islanders as wind farms proli... by smileysteve on Saturday February 12, 2022 @09:00AM (#30312858)
> its like suddenly they have to put up with road-level

Not at all. Db is not linear, so "suddenly have to put up with" "about 1/4 of the noise." Would be more accurate.

An example difference of 12db is a muffled idling compact car versus a consumer lawnmower at 10'.

Re:Turbine “torture” for Greek islanders as wind farms proli... by coldtea on Saturday February 12, 2022 @12:16PM (#30314390)
>An example difference of 12db is a muffled idling compact car versus a consumer lawnmower at 10'.

Yeah, I know what a difference of -Xdb is, as I do audio production work. Another example of 12db difference is a blender vs a vacuum cleaner. But despite it being -12db lower (or even a little more), I wouldn't stand to listen to the latter, still. So it's not just the difference that matters, it's the initial level.

The actual noise level they now have to put up with didn't exist in their village, and what did exist didn't have the specific sound / frequency distribution - so it's still annoying - maddening even, if you need to suffer because some others decided to put those things a few hundred meters near you.

Re:Turbine “torture” for Greek islanders as wind farms proli... by musicale on Friday February 11, 2022 @06:29PM (#30308277)
Road noise is nothing compared to the horror of aircraft noise in US cities.

Average noise level doesn't tell you the frequency spectrum; the low frequency noise from (aircraft, roads, power plants, etc.) is particularly unbearable, and inescapable even inside sound-insulated buildings, while the high frequency noise from (aircraft, turbines, 24/7 emergency vehicles, etc.) hits the 5KHz "crying baby" peak of sensitivity in human hearing.

Re:Turbine “torture” for Greek islanders as wind farms proli... by pixl97 on Friday February 11, 2022 @07:58PM (#30308920)
Are aircraft somehow quieter in EU cities?
Re:Turbine “torture” for Greek islanders as wind farms proli... by pasabagi on Saturday February 12, 2022 @12:37PM (#30314578)
Seems so? This[0] paper was a bit above my head, but seemed to be premised on the notion that the EU had stricter noise regulations (although that could be counterbalanced by the relative population density of the EU).

[0]: https://scholar.smu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1547&con...

Re:Turbine “torture” for Greek islanders as wind farms proli... by mdp2021 on Saturday February 12, 2022 @04:52AM (#30311477)
> How does that compare in dB

That is statistics as blurred images :) Compare 55dB of, say, so-called "musical impressionism" to 43db of "hardcore techno"...

Re:Turbine “torture” for Greek islanders as wind farms proli... by pasabagi on Saturday February 12, 2022 @03:03PM (#30315834)
Which is which, though?

I mainly wanted to do a dB comparison so there's a reference to how this 'torture' compares to other, normal experiences. If they had made this point of fact explicit in the article, then maybe they would have went on to explain how the particular sound profile of the wind turbines was somehow worse (hopefully with evidence!) than it seems at first blush.

Since they didn't, it's pretty clear to me that the writer or editor has either woeful research practices, deficient intellect, or a private interest. My money is on the last one: lots of wealthy, well-connected people own holiday homes that lose value when people build turbines near them.

Re:Turbine “torture” for Greek islanders as wind farms proli... by mdp2021 on Sunday February 13, 2022 @04:28AM (#30320494)
> it's pretty clear to me ... deficient intellect

What?!?!?!? I clearly stated it: sound amplitude has nothing to do with it - that can be a source of torture, or may not: it is the shape and duration of the sound.

If you thought that this 'torture' can be compared to other experiences through a dB value, you are not entitled to write about deficiency.

Be informed: certain noise is a nuisance with one wearing white noise inside earmuffs over earpugs. That abates decibels, yet can make the effect even worse.

They have not «went on to explain how the particular sound profile of the wind turbines» because it's not needed at all, you do not normally need to convince the public: if you yourself do not believe that those things are a nuisance, go listen to one! And even if someone played "bearable", you know: that's your feeling, go live or just stay near one if you want; others have passed by them, remained in shock, and now avoid them, with some relative difficulty, because there are territories around the world that do not offer that much space left, which increases the fear as "deficient intellects" are all around and many voices has raised lately "let us multiply those turbines", which translates to some as "let us adopt silver bullet solutions which are popular: let us give the public what they want", "careful what you wish for" for "deficient intellects".

If a speaker is naive in thinking that the public can receive a message, that is not even 'intellect' at fault - it's 'outellect'. The inside may work very well, it's the outside that does not duly reflect expectations.

Re:Turbine “torture” for Greek islanders as wind farms proli... by pasabagi on Sunday February 13, 2022 @02:30PM (#30324767)
Sure: they're not very loud. That's the whole point. They are about half as loud as a road. I don't know what people find particularly terrible about the timbre, but personally, it seems OK. Another nice thing about quiet noises is that you very quickly can't hear them at all, so whatever magical properties they have, less people are effected by them than loud noises.

Moreover, it's obviously important to include, in an article about noise 'torture', that these noises are by no means loud noises, just so your audience get an actual picture of what's going on.

PS: I just realised, you thought my post was talking about you, and not the writer of the article! Apologies for offense caused: I was being rude about the journalist, not about you. Unless you are the journalist, in which case, offense absolutely meant.