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Re:I was once a Facebook fool by TomOfTTB on Friday September 23, 2011 @11:03AM (#3030196)
I’m not saying the author is wrong here but I think he’s unfair in attacking just Facebook.

The one thing I learned from my time in the valley is that EVERYONE is looking out for themselves. That isn’t meant as negatively as it sounds. People go there to prove themselves. Either by making money or making their mark on the world (which is why people like Sean Parker stick around even after they’ve made money). But whatever the case they’re in it to win at all costs.

That’s why people work 18 hours a day and pour every cent they have into their startup.

But that’s the relevant point. If people are going to give up everything in their lives to win you can’t assume they’ll then hinder their chances by looking out for your needs. In this story the author is upset because Facebook decided they had a better chance of winning by partnering with iLike. But could you really expect any company in the valley to act differently?

There are plenty of places in the world where the environment isn’t as competitive and if that appeals to you then you should go there. But if you decide to start a company in the heart of the startup world you should expect everyone to be working towards their own goals and plan accordingly. That means NEVER relying on ANYBODY more than you have to and ALWAYS having a backup plan.

Re:I was once a Facebook fool by witten on Friday September 23, 2011 @11:27AM (#3030318)
All the more reason not to be a sharecropper and build your application on an open platform. If you know you're working in an environment in which everyone is looking out solely for their own interests, you might as well start out on even footing rather than with a Facebook or Microsoft holding the keys to your project's success.
Re:I was once a Facebook fool by gaius on Friday September 23, 2011 @12:34PM (#3030583)
What open platform? Diaspora is a joke at this point.
Re:I was once a Facebook fool by william42 on Friday September 23, 2011 @02:35PM (#3031063)
HTTP, HTML, and Javascript. (I will say, though, that I'm holding out a sliver of hope for Google+ becoming a federated platform.)
Re:I was once a Facebook fool by mahyarm on Saturday September 24, 2011 @01:07AM (#3032578)
Just make facebook a social plugin/driver to your stand alone web app that you can swap out with ease. Make adding your app to G+ be a 1 week/ 2 day project for features available on both.
Re:I was once a Facebook fool by sanj on Friday September 23, 2011 @01:07PM (#3030720)
Steve Blank feels otherwise: http://steveblank.com/2011/09/15/the-pay-it-forward-culture/

You don't have to be Machiavellian to succeed.

Re:I was once a Facebook fool by larrys on Friday September 23, 2011 @01:26PM (#3030782)
I worked with Steve at a company. Steve isn't a nice guy. Steve is definitely a win at all costs type of person despite how he might try to portray himself right now. He brought men and women to tears and belittled them as did many of the people under him at his apparent approval.
Re:I was once a Facebook fool by aridiculous on Friday September 23, 2011 @01:41PM (#3030852)
In his mixergy interview, he was a nice, great, caring guy, but when Andrew took a wrong step, Blank sort of lost it on air. I chalked it up to he having a bad day or being highly stressed, but it was interesting to see such a quick shift in character.

It reminds me of that scene in "Inside Job" where Columbia Dean Glenn Hubbard changes tone after a question he doesn't like. It's as if he pulled a mask off and became a monster.

It's those small behavioral observations that make humans so interesting to me.

Note: Steve Blank has chosen to be a public figure so I don't believe talking about his behavior is equivalent to gossip.

Re:I was once a Facebook fool by mmaro on Friday September 23, 2011 @01:53PM (#3030911)
It's been a while since I've watched it, but I didn't get the impression that Blank lost it. As I remember, Andrew just made a big deal out of his minor misstep and focused on the misstep rather than getting the interview back on track. I think most interviewees, not just Blank, would find this annoying.
Re:I was once a Facebook fool by mmaro on Friday September 23, 2011 @05:50PM (#3031716)
Please consider my comment retracted (I can't delete it); Andrew did a much better job than I remembered.
Re:I was once a Facebook fool by larrys on Friday September 23, 2011 @06:07PM (#3031757)
Thanks - I will watch the entire clip later (looks interesting) but a quick scan and I would say what appears to be the part of the interview that was referred to seems to be somewhat ambiguous. And I think you're right I wouldn't characterize it as "lost it" either. Although he does appear irritated and says he was "blindsided" I don't think this is really representative of the Steve that I remember and commented about (no clips of that sorry..)

It starts at about 20:10 and Steve says he was "blindsided" at about 21:00 approx. as if he was misled or something by Andrew. I thought the question Andrew asked was a good question.

Re:I was once a Facebook fool by larrys on Friday September 23, 2011 @02:10PM (#3030959)
That type of behavior is representative of someone with an anger problem. And you're right this could also be chalked up to someone, anyone, having a bad day. But in this case (as you described) he was doing an interview and is for all intents and purposes retired and having a great time being toast of the startup town. He's didn't just get fired from HP or anything. (And of course what you described is what I did experience.)

But that video appears to have vanished. If you can find a link I'd like to see it.

Re:I was once a Facebook fool by mmaro on Friday September 23, 2011 @05:10PM (#3031600)
http://ifile.it/mdk43ht - this link will probably be dead in a week or two

(BTW, if you save everything you find interesting, you realize just how much disappears from the Internet. The half-life of the average link is about 4.5 years.)

Re:I was once a Facebook fool by tlogan on Friday September 23, 2011 @04:30PM (#3031469)
In general I think SV has a nice culture: people help each other. For example, Jonathan and Laura from Hackers and Founders.

The competitive environment does not require behavior which is dishonest and win at all costs. There is a simple rule in business: if you are not sure whether to lie or not, tell the truth. Follow that rule and soround yourself with people like that you will be fine.

Yes there are some assholes (and they ended up rich - go figure). Just be smart and avoid people who are not transparent and dishoest.

Re:I was once a Facebook fool by VladRussian on Friday September 23, 2011 @04:14PM (#3031425)
>But if you decide to start a company in the heart of the startup world you should expect everyone to be working towards their own goals and plan accordingly. That means NEVER relying on ANYBODY more than you have to and ALWAYS having a backup plan.

couple quotes come to mind by association:

"Never believe them. Never fear them. Never ask them anything."

"You should never ask anyone for anything. Never- and especially from those who are more powerful than yourself."

Re:I was once a Facebook fool by nirvana on Friday September 23, 2011 @12:06PM (#3030477)
You can look out for yourself without lying, cheating, or backstabbing others. You can operate as a moral, ethical person, and not have to mislead people, or break your promises.

Looking out for yourself is not the problem, dishonesty is.

This becomes a bigger problem when dishonesty becomes part of the culture.

Re:I was once a Facebook fool by dxbydt on Friday September 23, 2011 @02:18PM (#3030996)
> without lying, cheating, or backstabbing...not have to mislead people, or break your promises.

From my time in the valley, I'd say dishonesty, misleading clients, breaking promises, not delivering on time, all of that is very much a part of the sv culture.

At Sun, we'd tell all our clients that Microsoft was evil, out to crush us. Our CEO Scott McNealy sent around a famous email about the sizes of MS & non-MS file formats. "Sun will win" had 12 chars * 1byte/char = 12 bytes as a textfile, 24 bytes as an Openoffice file, and 100,000 bytes as an MS powerpoint slide! While entirely factual, it was quite a dubious example, considering that internally within Sun, we happily used Wintel machines, used powerpoint for presentations, emailed Word files around instead of PDFs, and dissed openoffice as a piece of junk :)

When Java was in its infancy ( 1997-2000 period ), a lot of promises were made & fell by the wayside. Sun was building up its consulting arm, so we'd go out to customer sites and say Yes Java can do this, that and the other. Then we'd come back & Javasoft would tell us, look this feature is simply not part of the forthcoming API. Sometimes they'd get an old wise Unix/C hacker to write C code to do whatever was necessary beneath the covers, and then write a JNI wrapper atop that and thus claim Hey Java can actually do telnet & ftp natively ( Ha!).

I had to deal with a lot of graphics code that was routinely promised & arrived DOA. One of the primary requirements for most financial sevices firms was a table widget to display spreadsheets. AWT didn't have one. Someday there was suposed to be something called Swing, and it would have a powerful table API that would rival the MFC widgets in its power. That's what Sun told us, and that's what we as Sun consultants sold to all our Wall Street clients. But the damn thing took so long to build, every firm had their own proprietary table APIs.

At GS I worked on something called GSTable ( God those horrible memories make them go away! ) So this godawful GSTable was a homecooked solution to display tabular data. I started with something stupid - create an array of Label ( AWT labels ) and put them in a Panel. This created m x n + 1 components per table - too heavy & memory intensive. Then when Swing came out & didn't have a table, we made m x n JLabel's and put them into a JPanel. Over the summer, a Princeton computer graphics intern coded up a canvas ( just 1 custom Component ) that overrode paint() and drew all the cell contents. That worked so well, GS made the teen a six figure offer while he was still in his junior year. All he'd have to do is maintain that table widget! He wisely turned them down & went on to become a computer graphics heavyweight. Meanwhile, I worked on that GSTable as it went through various iterations, until it was actually capable of displaying rows and columns with different sizes, which was apparently a very common requirement in finance. Then finally the Swing JTable arrived! I was like Hallejulah end of all my misery! But alas, Sun's promises & its deliverable were so far apart. That JTable couldn't display multiwidth rows, the paint code was riddled with scaling bugs, it was a bloody mess. There were actual fuck this and fuck that blocks of code in the repaint...the frustrated Javasoft developer wrestling with repaint math! So we stuck with the GSTable. Then IBM came out with their SWT, you had Marimba with their desktop widgets...but everytime we decided to adopt something as the standard, that company would just vanish into thin air...Marimba decided it wanted to get out of AWT widgets business and stick to push technology so that was that...so many broken promises and toy widgets, certainly none of them worth the hundreds of thousands of dollars in license fees.

Everybody likes to paint wall st as a paragon of evil while the poor honest tech genius slogs away in the valley working on the cutting edge of technology. In reality, greed is rampant on both sides, money flows from main st to wall st & from there on to the valley. Everybody's got his fingers in the cookie jar.

Re:I was once a Facebook fool by larrys on Friday September 23, 2011 @04:07PM (#3031397)
"From my time in the valley, I'd say dishonesty, misleading clients, breaking promises, not delivering on time, all of that is very much a part of the sv culture."

Vaporware comes to mind.

As well as my own personal experience being told not to inform mfg. reps and vars about known bugs and problems (this was early 90's). Not knowing the ropes at the time I was threatened in a meeting for suggesting we do something that is more or less routine today.

And this type of dishonesty brings much pain and frustration on people using the product.

Re:I was once a Facebook fool by abstractwater on Friday September 23, 2011 @03:23PM (#3031229)
Who was that "Princeton computer graphics intern" and what did he build afterwards?
Re:I was once a Facebook fool by dxbydt on Friday September 23, 2011 @04:03PM (#3031383)
Dude...its all such a blur..I'd have to rent a time machine and hit the computer graphics depts at all the ivies. But I did find some JTable code from way back then, in the bugfix archive http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/msg018...

public void setRowHeight(int rh, int row) { setRowHeight(rh); // FIXME: not implemented }

So that was actual code that Sun shipped. A method setRowHeight(rh,row) that allowed you to change the height of row number 'row' to 'rh', instead changed the height of ALL rows to 'rh' because the alternative was too hard and therefore not implemented! So much for multi-height rows.

Re:I was once a Facebook fool by TomOfTTB on Friday September 23, 2011 @01:00PM (#3030679)
I'll agree with outright lying in that a person knowingly lying to another person is wrong. But with the rest I'm not sure I can agree.

Because again the Valley is a kill or be killed environment. The assumption is that others will look out for themselves. So, for example, if someone were to promise me something I'd ask for a contract. If I don't get a contract I'd assume that person was planning to violate that promise some day. Because that's how that environment works.

And I'm not sure it could be any other way. Because the stakes are so high. It is human nature for people to forgive themselves if they feel they're acting for a higher cause. So if that person believes their company will make them billions of dollars and make the world a better place then they're likely to forgive themselves for telling a lie here or there.

It may not be right but it's the way the world works (and honestly it's why I don't live there anymore)

Re:I was once a Facebook fool by ericd on Friday September 23, 2011 @06:50PM (#3031886)
I try to avoid contracts because they're a huge timesuck and potentially expensive to get reviewed, not because I intend to screw you. If it's a really big deal in terms of potential monetary damages, though, then you're probably right.
Re:I was once a Facebook fool by nirvana on Friday September 23, 2011 @03:30PM (#3031249)
That's an interesting point. I've always thought of contracts as being the mechanism by which two honest parties clarify the terms of their agreement, such that the main value was getting the details written down, and agreed on, where they might otherwise be missed.

It depends on the business, of course, but while I won't sign something I disagree with, I'd never trust that a court would have my back in a dispute. I'm more more concerned with whether the other party has integrity, and has interests aligned with mine, than specific terms of an agreement.

In large part, I think of contracts as unenforceable, though maybe this comes from working at startups so much where you sign contracts, but you know that at your current size you couldn't afford the court case to enforce the contract, if it came to that.

Mediation makes them more viable, though, since it lowers the barrier for getting a dispute heard.

I think you and I don't live in Silicon Valley for very similar reasons. Plus, I just find the high risk focus a distraction from building a scalable business.

Re:I was once a Facebook fool by wpietri on Friday September 23, 2011 @01:08PM (#3030721)
Agreed. And as a San Francisco startup guy for a dozen years, that balance between honesty and self-interest is generally what I have seen here. There are assholes wherever you go, but I've benefited a lot from the relatively collaborative environment here, and try to give back in turn.