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Re:Case against OOP is understated, not overstated (2020) by wpietri on Friday February 11, 2022 @12:15AM (#30297300)
What sort of domains do you see as sufficiently well-understood and stable where this process is even achievable? A lot of my career has been in domains where we are exploring problems by building and shipping things to see what really works for users and customers. And other times there's domain volatility driven by changes in technology and competitive landscape.

Even for domains that are stable and knowable, I have to wonder what businesses can afford that kind of up-front investment before the first feature ships.

Re:Case against OOP is understated, not overstated (2020) by baryphonic on Friday February 11, 2022 @02:25AM (#30298157)
I've had largely the same experience as you, but I have seen some hints that real simplicity could be possible. If the domain is technology itself, there may be no underlying simplicity.

Ultimately, I think we have to make a trade-off between simplicity and easiness. The approach I outlined would be incredibly expensive because the tooling for that approach isn't quite good enough yet, and stakeholders wouldn't even understand it. They wouldn't realize that you were building a pitch for your product not as a PowerPoint deck, but as executable code!

A lot of our complexity today is from constructing software itself over layer upon layer of previous complex software (CSS, I'm looking at you), not due to the intrinsic "business cases" our software is meant to solve. Some of that complexity cannot be avoided, and some of it could be but at significant cost. To use an analogy, it's also cheaper to build a traffic light-controlled intersection, but overpasses are simpler.

Coincidentally, almost all of the tools I've seen that try to make simplicity cheaper come either from the Scheme/Racket/Lisp world that Hickey himself hails from or from Alan Kay and his sphere of influence. (The two groups have quite a bit of overlap, both in terms of ideas and even people.)

Re:Case against OOP is understated, not overstated (2020) by jiriro on Friday February 11, 2022 @06:57AM (#30300353)
Could you please elaborate on Hickey’s and Kay’s key ideas and how to try them hands on?

I know about Smalltalk (Squeak) so I guess that is the playground for Kay’s. Would just playing with Clojure do the same for the Hickey’s?

Re:Case against OOP is understated, not overstated (2020) by wpietri on Friday February 11, 2022 @09:58AM (#30302183)
Sorry, I'm still not seeing how/when the approach you're hinting toward is practically valuable. So far it seems to me like you're pursuing one dimension of quality to the exclusion of others. Which is an interesting theoretical exercise, so if that's your jam, have at it. But it sounded to me like you were proposing something people could actually do.
Re:Case against OOP is understated, not overstated (2020) by magpi3 on Friday February 11, 2022 @03:27AM (#30298691)
Compilers maybe?
Re:Case against OOP is understated, not overstated (2020) by wpietri on Saturday February 12, 2022 @11:17AM (#30313868)
Ooh, interesting! You're right, there's a class of domain where one can just push the real-world change to the edges of the system and ignore it. E.g., there's surely software that's mainly about complying with laws.

But even there, I suspect adaptation has to happen. Python's had how many versions over the years? Indeed, I could argue that it's one of the world's most successful languages precisely because it keeps responding to user need. Or look at tax software, which is going to change at least every year, and more often in emergencies.

So I suspect at best these other domains have a slower iteration clock. Which might be slow enough for the sort of formal modelling that is described. But then I think there's an open question: do other methods also work just as well with slow iteration clocks?