FB doesn't sell the data, they sell the ability for advertisers to advertise to groups. I'm not a fan of ad-driven models, but this is a lot different than selling data.

If you're using unencrypted messaging you should assume it's public. This is true of FB messenger and Telegram, but if I had to bet on what unencrypted content is more likely to be owned I'd bet on Telegram. This is mostly a bet on where the world's best security people are and the company culture.

Really though we shouldn't be relying on the benevolence of any of these company leaders, that's why people should use Signal or WhatsApp where the encryption means you don't have to (or Urbit where there is no central leader).

Telegram, specifically P. Durov has literally sponsored Russian dissidents. He refused to give over info when he still ran VK over to the FSB instead sending them literally memes. When Telegram was banned in Russia, he spun up free proxies for people to bypass the restrictions.

In short - you’re posting misinformation.

From this article it sounds like he probably did give info over to the FSB when running VK after he got spooked. Though at least it does sound like after that he made changes to get out of the country so he could be more independent.

VK =/= Telegram. At this point the FSB has free reign on key requests from VK — it’s owned in majority by Usmanov, who has strong connections to the Kremlin. But in the article it says that he made that clear in his remarks as well when he was ousted.

Yeah I know VK != Telegram, but in the article when he was running VK it sounded like he got scared and handed over a lot of personal user details to the government.

It also sounded like with Telegram there was some abuse of looking up or deleting other employees chats when threatened. The culture of the company doesn’t seem great.

All of this is kind of irrelevant though. The core issue is unencrypted chats.

That is not intentional.

My point is not that Durov sends data to Putin (I don't think he does).

My point is that there is a lot we don't know about Telegram.

When it comes to WhatsApp and all other Facebook properties we know a lot and much of what we know is ugly.

But yes, I should find a better way to phrase it.

What a civilized response. I don’t know if this is the norm on HN, but this is incredibly constructive compared to the reddit or twitter doubling down for any stance. Cheers.