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Re:Early ‘lab-grown’ Covid virus found in sample lends weigh... by pageandrew on Wednesday February 09, 2022 @05:27PM (#30279454)
Mere weeks after Covid-19 arrived on our shores, nearly every media, social media, and scientific establishment were in lockstep denouncing the "fringe", "far-right" lab leak theory, and suppressing it as best they could (Twitter banned people for posting about it in 2020). Not only was it fringe, it was racist too! Before any real, thorough research had been done, they stated with certainty that it definitely did not come from the lab. How could they know so quickly?

Its scary to see how quickly our formerly respected institutions were to suppress a legitimate inquiry, simply because... why? It was associated with Trump? It offended China?

Anyone who argues for more social media censorship needs to look long and hard at the lab leak theory and how it was handled. These corporate giants that are supposed to be the arbiters of what constitutes misinformation got it wrong, and they got it spectacularly wrong. They got it wrong to the detriment of people who want to know what really happened, and they got it wrong in favor of America's greatest adversary.

Re:Early ‘lab-grown’ Covid virus found in sample lends weigh... by camjohnson26 on Wednesday February 09, 2022 @05:33PM (#30279535)
One reason could be because some of the people responsible for researching origins were personally involved in funding gain of function research in these labs. Some scientists privately supported the lab leak theory, but they abruptly changed their minds for unknown reasons. https://republicans-oversight.house.gov/release/comer-scalis...
Re:Early ‘lab-grown’ Covid virus found in sample lends weigh... by baja_blast on Wednesday February 09, 2022 @06:18PM (#30280158)
Also you could argue that Virologists also have a conflict of interest, speaking out in support of the lab leak theory would not only jeopardize their ability to continue receiving grants from the NIH, but also could result strict regulations/bans on the majority of their research.

So Virologists have a choice: A: State that this virus is natural and be hailed as heroes as funding into your field and research floods in. B: Back the Lab Origin betraying all of their colleagues, become social pariahs and hated in society for being guilty by association for 6+ million deaths. All while you life's work and career all gets thrown down the drain.

For a Virologist supporting the lab origin only has downsides.

Re:Early ‘lab-grown’ Covid virus found in sample lends weigh... by manuelabeledo on Wednesday February 09, 2022 @05:41PM (#30279647)
> Not only was it fringe, it was racist too!

It wasn't "racist" per se, but it was subsequently used as an ideological weapon.

There was a clear consequence of tying COVID-19 with some sort of WMD released by the Chinese, and it was the increase in violence against AAPI folks.

Re:Early ‘lab-grown’ Covid virus found in sample lends weigh... by pageandrew on Wednesday February 09, 2022 @07:40PM (#30280945)
> There was a clear consequence of tying COVID-19 with some sort of WMD released by the Chinese and it was the increase in violence against AAPI folks.

Nobody said WMD. Most likely culprit is irresponsibly risky experimentation combined with documented poor lab safety practices.

That said, even if there was a direct link between theories about Covid-19 origins and a rise in hate crimes, does that mean that those theories shouldn't be discussed? If the search for truth leads to unintended and unfortunate side effects, does that mean that the search for truth should be abandoned in favor of burying our heads in the sand? Or worse, adopting an alternate reality that is more harmful to us, like maybe the Chinese Communist Party "theory" that Covid came from a US Army lab.

Re:Early ‘lab-grown’ Covid virus found in sample lends weigh... by acdha on Wednesday February 09, 2022 @09:10PM (#30281638)
> Nobody said WMD.

This was in fact a not uncommon claim. It wouldn’t have gotten anywhere near the backlash if concerns about an accidental leak been expressed as questions rather than with certainty, by people who weren’t also making racist statements or otherwise acting in bad faith about the pandemic (you could easily find Republicans saying it was both mostly harmless and a Chinese attack just sentences apart).

Re:Early ‘lab-grown’ Covid virus found in sample lends weigh... by manuelabeledo on Thursday February 10, 2022 @06:37AM (#30284847)
> If the search for truth leads to unintended and unfortunate side effects, does that mean that the search for truth should be abandoned in favor of burying our heads in the sand?

I think this is a take as naive as it can be.

Not only can we read about this lab leak hypothesis across all media outlets, there is an ongoing debate about its validity in most respectable ones. Debates should include opposing opinions, I presume?

There are also plenty of historical examples of why public opinion driven by media outlets does not qualify as the “search of truth”. Reporting itself has mostly nothing to do with that, either. This hypothesis and many others could be true or false, but the vast majority of the population is simply not able to reach an informed conclusion, even more if we take into account that not even experts have enough information to do so. Thus, one shouldn’t believe otherwise, while ignoring the fact that it is already being used to push public opinion in a certain direction.

Re:Early ‘lab-grown’ Covid virus found in sample lends weigh... by pageandrew on Thursday February 10, 2022 @12:35PM (#30289682)
> Not only can we read about this lab leak hypothesis across all media outlets, there is an ongoing debate about its validity in most respectable ones.

This was not the case throughout 2020, into 2021. Discussing the lab leak publicly was a great way to get banned from Twitter or branded a misinformation-spreading fringe alt-righter, a-la-Rogan. This was despite the fact that there was no less evidence supporting its probability.

Re:Early ‘lab-grown’ Covid virus found in sample lends weigh... by manuelabeledo on Thursday February 10, 2022 @01:07PM (#30290138)
> This was despite the fact that there was no less evidence supporting its probability.

In the first half of 2020 there was no evidence whatsoever. Even if the hypothesis is proven true in the future, promoting it without any supporting evidence is indistinguishable from just lying.

It was indeed peddled by right wing outlets earlier in 2020, coinciding with the ongoing trade war between the US and China [1].

[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/COVID-19_lab_leak_theory

Re:Early ‘lab-grown’ Covid virus found in sample lends weigh... by jcims on Wednesday February 09, 2022 @05:42PM (#30279667)
Alex Jones’ counter-influential powers on one ’side’ appear to be substantially greater than his influential pull on the other.
Re:Early ‘lab-grown’ Covid virus found in sample lends weigh... by stjohnswarts on Wednesday February 09, 2022 @06:07PM (#30280003)
They were doing exactly what they should to tamp down crazy far right wing propaganda that was aimed at incentivizing the public towards violence against asians. If you had evidence of a lab leak then present it and then you can promote a theory that is likely to result in violence towards individuals otherwise please keep it to yourself until you have proof.
Re:Early ‘lab-grown’ Covid virus found in sample lends weigh... by pageandrew on Wednesday February 09, 2022 @07:44PM (#30280986)
> They were doing exactly what they should to tamp down crazy far right wing propaganda that was aimed at incentivizing the public towards violence against asians.

What you've just said is baseless. Nobody "aimed" this theory. The theory simply came into being because it is plausible, probable, and just made sense if you looked at the facts of the situation objectively.

The lab leak theory was plausible from Day One, and anyone who said otherwise was motivated by ideology or fear.

> If you had evidence of a lab leak then present it and then you can promote a theory that is likely to result in violence towards individuals otherwise please keep it to yourself until you have proof

There is more evidence of a lab leak than there is of a zoonotic jump (none).

Re:Early ‘lab-grown’ Covid virus found in sample lends weigh... by stjohnswarts on Thursday February 10, 2022 @11:27AM (#30288511)
I'm sorry but it is quite naive not to see the Republican elite have used the covid issue (like so many others) to frighten their followers into believing the astroturfing on facebook, twitter, reddit, etc to convince people that covid is many things: a hoax, a progressive attempt to get us to take vaccines that will sterilize us, an attack from China, and on and on. The party that produced Q anon from a prank on 4/8chan isn't appealing to the fear portions of the brain? They're doing this to sell their policies which are meant to enrich the elite (0.1%)? I think you should take a step back and look at the big picture of what Republican leaders are up to. It's certainly not for the benefit of the masses.
Re:Early ‘lab-grown’ Covid virus found in sample lends weigh... by munk-a on Wednesday February 09, 2022 @05:39PM (#30279629)
> Its scary to see how quickly our formerly respected institutions were to suppress a legitimate inquiry, simply because... why? It was associated with Trump? It offended China?

Because it immediately led to an increase in anti-asian hate crimes. That included effecting Chinese-Americans who have literally never been to China and south east asians that were mistaken as Chinese.

It is difficult to have a nuanced discussion about lab safety in the public view when there's a big chunk of the political sphere that will use it to rile up their base. It sucks that censorship is the better option but we've learned from 9/11 that people are anything but reasonable - I had wealthy middle eastern neighbors who fled the country within a week of the attacks and, after everything that came from 9/11, it seems like they made the right decision.

Re:Early ‘lab-grown’ Covid virus found in sample lends weigh... by logicalmonster on Wednesday February 09, 2022 @06:14PM (#30280095)
> Because it immediately led to an increase in anti-asian hate crimes.

I'm asking the following as seriously and as respectfully as I possibly can, and let it be known that I abhor all crime.

Was this anti-Asian hate crime story ever real, or was it a media narrative designed to bash Trump?

Just to play Devil's Advocate: what if crime rates in cities where many Asians tend to live are going up in general? How would you be able to distinguish between anti-Asian hate crimes increasing, and crime in general increasing? Is the rate of crimes against Asians going up relative to the rate of crimes against say Latinos or Whites or Blacks? Is the rate of crimes against Asians increasing more or less in say Red regions that might tend to be influenced by Trump's rhetoric versus Blue regions that might be less likely to tend to listen to his rhetoric? Has the media even bothered to ask this question and analyze the data, or were they quick to instantly rush to blame Trump for any Asian that was a victim of a random crime in order to score political points.

I don't know myself as it requires a lot more research than I can do right now, but what I can see as factual is that there are probably hundreds of stories about crime going up in the last couple of years for every big city.

https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/major-crimes-up-38-in-...

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/01/24/opinion/new-york-rising-c...

https://gothamist.com/news/why-are-shootings-and-murders-ris...

Just my 2 cents. The data might not indicate what the media says it does and I would say that we should recheck all of our initial premises about the last 6 years.

Re:Early ‘lab-grown’ Covid virus found in sample lends weigh... by munk-a on Wednesday February 09, 2022 @06:54PM (#30280567)
I'm a Canadian American[1] living in Vancouver so I can tell you subjectively that it has seemed to be a lot more common to see anti-asian graffiti on buildings and the like - and also, objectively, anti-asian hate crimes are up in Vancouver by over 700%[2][3] - now Vancouver has a really complicated relationship with asian immigrants, it hosts a large number of RoC expats from the Chinese Revolution so there are frequently clashes between them and PRC expats (especially whenever something happens with Hong Kong) and it's also dealing with a housing crises that is made much worse by an influx of foreign capital (mainly from RoC/PRC) so I don't know if it's fair to blame COVID for all of that increase - but it's definitely dramatically out of line with previous years increases and, while Trump still is a factor up here, it's less focused specifically on the American political sphere and probably a fairer representation of "western" political sphere reactions in general.

1. I emigrated after university - I grew up in Massachusetts and Vermont and was in High School when 9/11 happened if you're curious how that gels with my previous comment.

2. Guardian Article: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/may/23/vancoucer-anti...

3. Linked police report https://vancouverpoliceboard.ca/police/policeboard/agenda/20...

Re:Early ‘lab-grown’ Covid virus found in sample lends weigh... by manuelabeledo on Wednesday February 09, 2022 @06:17PM (#30280139)
Hate crimes against AAPI went up 339% last year: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/asian-america/anti-asian-hate-c...

That's remarkably higher than the average increase.

Re:Early ‘lab-grown’ Covid virus found in sample lends weigh... by logicalmonster on Wednesday February 09, 2022 @06:23PM (#30280219)
Thank you for the contribution, but the article doesn't seem to dive into the types of stats that would be necessary to answer the types of questions I asked. I will try and look deeper into some of the stats cited and their methology to get a better picture of their point of view though, thanks.
Re:Early ‘lab-grown’ Covid virus found in sample lends weigh... by pageandrew on Wednesday February 09, 2022 @07:35PM (#30280906)
Is there any evidence that those hate crimes were connected to people concerned about the experiments conducted by the Wuhan Institute of Virology?
Re:Early ‘lab-grown’ Covid virus found in sample lends weigh... by munk-a on Wednesday February 09, 2022 @08:09PM (#30281194)
That's the kind of question that can't reasonably be answered - we don't and, I personally think, can't really track the personal motives of crimes in a logical manner since hate crimes are generally pretty illogical actions.

The most legitimate response you could hope to get to such a question is some anecdotal evidence.

Re:Early ‘lab-grown’ Covid virus found in sample lends weigh... by pageandrew on Wednesday February 09, 2022 @08:12PM (#30281220)
Agreed. So why do people try to stifle reasonable debate about a plausible theory by making unfalsifiable allegations tying that theory to hate crimes?
Re:Early ‘lab-grown’ Covid virus found in sample lends weigh... by manuelabeledo on Thursday February 10, 2022 @06:14AM (#30284702)
The hypothesis that links the increase of hate crimes to the idea that the virus was intentionally created and/or spread by the Chinese, is also “plausible”.

The reporting of harassment and hate crimes usually involve the aggressor’s statements at the time of the occurrence, thus it is perfectly possible to link a physical or verbal attack to a motivation.

There isn’t a concerted effort anywhere to stop the debate about the lab leak hypothesis, and proof of it is the widespread coverage in media, from MIT review to NYT.

There is though a more unified push of such hypothesis made by right-wing outlets, like this one, FOX, or NYP, among others. And, if anything, that should give us pause, as this is more about shaping public opinion than informing.

Re:Early ‘lab-grown’ Covid virus found in sample lends weigh... by pageandrew on Wednesday February 09, 2022 @07:51PM (#30281044)
I think the virus starting in China is more to blame for the rise in anti-Asian hate crimes than a technical discussion about whether it was more likely that the virus came from animals mixing in a wet market, or from the L4 Virology lab, with questionable safety practices, specializing in bat coronaviruses that was located 500ft away.
Re:Early ‘lab-grown’ Covid virus found in sample lends weigh... by KennyBlanken on Wednesday February 09, 2022 @05:46PM (#30279741)
It was denounced because at the time there wasn't any evidence, mostly racism (see: "kung flu"); the accusation was rooted solely in a desire to rile up the president's base. It generated substantial harassment and violence against anyone who even appeared to be of Chinese descent, another reason it was denounced; not because of some vast media conspiracy.
Re:Early ‘lab-grown’ Covid virus found in sample lends weigh... by pageandrew on Wednesday February 09, 2022 @07:48PM (#30281012)
> It was denounced because at the time there wasn't any evidence

There was, and is, no evidence of the theory that it originated from a zoonotic leap at a wet market, which is arguably more racist because it places Chinese culinary practices in the spotlight instead of risky science experiments.

It was denounced because the scientists (like Peter Daszak) who were cited by the media in stifling the theory were the same scientists who were backing the risky research at the Wuhan Institute of Virology that likely lead to the lab leak. There was a clear conflict of interest that was undisclosed to the public.