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Re:Our nation cannot censor its way back to cultural health by josephcsible on Sunday February 06, 2022 @08:55PM (#30239209)
Isn't this still the same distinction? That's still just saying that nobody can force students to learn about critical race theory, not that they can't go read about it on their own if they want.
Re:Our nation cannot censor its way back to cultural health by klyrs on Sunday February 06, 2022 @09:00PM (#30239255)
No, it says that critical race theory cannot be offered. That's specific and distinct from required.
Re:Our nation cannot censor its way back to cultural health by TheOtherHobbes on Monday February 07, 2022 @02:32AM (#30241454)
It also depends on what is offered in its place.

We don't debate this enough, because it's invisible to most people.

Free speech in the broadest is exactly about curation, implied approval (proof by authority doesn't work philosophically, but absolutely does work rhetorically and politically), and access to airtime and audiences.

All of those can be bought with money.

To make an obvious point - if you can use money to impose your choices wrt curation etc, speech is no longer free.

This is a completely different meaning to "Talk about this and the government will imprison and/or murder you."

The latter hardly happens to anyone now. The former is absolutely foundational to the media.

There is no "marketplace of ideas" because those with money and political power can always enforce their narratives on those without - and they can do it cleanly, deniably, and effectively without needing to murder or jail dissenters.

They can even do it from behind various front organisations and curated movements, pretending to be scrappy freedom fighters railing against an oppressive mainstream.

Speech isn't free in any genuine sense while that remains true.

Re:Our nation cannot censor its way back to cultural health by josephcsible on Sunday February 06, 2022 @09:11PM (#30239337)
Ah, I see: that affects whether it's allowed to be taught in an elective class or not. Yes, to fully oppose censorship, we should allow critical race theory to be taught in optional elective social studies classes. But then we should also allow optional elective science classes to teach that evolution is wrong, because to do otherwise would be censoring the young-Earth creationists.
Re:Our nation cannot censor its way back to cultural health by klyrs on Sunday February 06, 2022 @09:21PM (#30239431)
If you can find a way to teach that without violating the Establishment Clause, sure. The only way forward I can see here would look like a comparative history of religions course, which would teach various creation stories from a neutral viewpoint. And that doesn't seem to be what those campaigning for anti-evolution education have been looking for. Curious if you've got any fresh ideas, though.
Re:Our nation cannot censor its way back to cultural health by josephcsible on Sunday February 06, 2022 @09:53PM (#30239705)
Maybe that was a bad example. What if instead of something religious, there was a class teaching some kooky conspiracy theory as fact, like a physics elective saying that perpetual motion is possible, but that the patents to make it work well enough to overcome friction have all been bought up by Big Oil and suppressed?
Re:Our nation cannot censor its way back to cultural health by klyrs on Sunday February 06, 2022 @10:10PM (#30239839)
It would need the support of textbook companies to print it, school boards to buy into it, teachers to deliver it, and students interested in taking it. There's a whole marketplace of ideas out there, and the course you're proposing simply wouldn't survive it.
Re:Our nation cannot censor its way back to cultural health by aftbit on Sunday February 06, 2022 @10:42PM (#30240070)
Teaching intelligent design needn't violate the Establishment Clause. Nobody says schools can't mention religions and what they believe, just that they cannot require students to adopt one.
Re:Our nation cannot censor its way back to cultural health by zozbot234 on Sunday February 06, 2022 @10:52PM (#30240138)
Using taxpayer money to promote religion has been held to be equivalent to an "establishment" of religion. This means that any schools funded by the tax man have to be strictly secular, even in their "elective" activities.
Re:Our nation cannot censor its way back to cultural health by klyrs on Sunday February 06, 2022 @10:56PM (#30240184)
The language I used allows that possibility. But, in the specific legal challenges I'm aware of in this area, that's been the constitutional obstacle to teaching creation as fact.