News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Is Printing a Gun the Same as Buying a Gun? by 0x12 on Tuesday September 20, 2011 @04:06PM (#3019344)
This is not 'printing a gun', this is printing two passive parts that you could just as well have whittled from wood or cast or put together in a hundred different ways. The 'load bearing parts' of a gun are the barrel, the breech and the trigger mechanism. For the sake of the argument let's pretend that the title is right and that you can 'print a gun'.

You could always make a gun, all you needed was a lathe, some tooling, a hacksaw a file, some steel stock and a bunch of patience.

Printing a gun is just another way to get to the goal, possibly an easier one but one with its own unique challenges.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Improvised_firearm

The differentiating factor for a gun from printed ABS is not that you've made it at home, but that it is very hard to detect the gun itself (you'd have a hard time not using metal at all, especially for the parts mentioned above and then there is the ammo).

You can bet that if you get caught with one trying to board an airplane that there will be very serious repercussions, you won't be able to say you left it in your carry-on luggage by accident. Well, you can say that but good luck to get anybody to believe you.

So, printing a gun is not the same as buying a gun, it is the same as making a fire-arm at home through conventional means.

On another note, the design of a working firearm, especially from unproven materials, is not something you muck around with unless you know your materials science. A gun that explodes when fired could have some pretty nasty effects on you and bystanders.

Re:Is Printing a Gun the Same as Buying a Gun? by ctdonath on Tuesday September 20, 2011 @04:36PM (#3019463)
The article focuses on a particular gun, the AR15. After much wrangling, settled law dictates that the "lower receiver" _is_ the gun; all the other parts are incidental. Sure, the lower receiver alone is little more than a big paperweight, but it's the unchanging core to which all other variable components are attached to form something functional. And no, you can't just "whittle it from wood" etc., it's a pretty serious chunk of milled steel (there exists a "plastic" version, but that ain't generic plastic).

Yes, some jurisdictions aside you can make one AR15 lower receiver on your own without any paperwork, fees, checks, or permission. Understanding is that nobody going thru that much effort is going to waste it by doing something stupid (if there's criminal intent there are many far easier ways to acquire one).

The issue here is: where's the line on making one? You can make one yourself legally, but if you hire someone else to knowingly make it they'll need an expensive big-hassle manufacturer's license. The key is "knowingly", as up until recently it was pretty obvious to the machinist what he was being asked to do. Now, with "printing", you just upload the pattern for what is otherwise just another odd-shaped chunk of metal, a computer & machine crank one out, and the result gets sent back to you with a minimum of comprehension by any humans involved - are _you_ "making" it? or is the printing house "making" it and, in effect, selling it to you? The legal line has been blurred.

Re:Is Printing a Gun the Same as Buying a Gun? by 0x12 on Tuesday September 20, 2011 @04:41PM (#3019477)
Anybody that wishes to pretend that the legal line has been blurred will find themselves sooner or later in an excellent position to try to prove that to a very unrelenting judge.

If the legal fiction is that the lower receiver of that gun is the gun, then legally that didn't change so the method of manufacturing it is not relevant.

Hiring someone to produce it while obfuscating the intent is not gray, it puts you in the docket. The printing house is acting on your explicit instruction, and if they don't review the orders (hard to do, after all, you can't know each and every prohibited item) then you are still on the hook.

Trained machinist or 3D printer operator the change is only in the material of the produced item.

As for not being able to whittle that part from wood, there are many kinds of wood that are much stronger than the ABS wire that a 3D printer uses.

And if it can't be made out of those kinds of wood then it certainly can't be made out of plastic printed ABS (if you expect the gun to function).

Re:Is Printing a Gun the Same as Buying a Gun? by anelson on Tuesday September 20, 2011 @05:23PM (#3019640)
While I agree it would be unwise to test this legal question in court, I think it is fair to say this is a murky legal question. The BATFE, the federal law enforcement agency responsible for enforcing US laws regarding firearms manufacture, have a history of arbitrary rulemaking in defiance of simple logic (for instance, in one famous rulemaking BATFE ruled that a shoe string would meet the legal definition of 'machine gun' if used to repeatedly fire a gun with a single pull of the trigger [1]).

Given this environment of legal uncertainty, it's not at all clear that BATFE would not pursue the 3D printer operator who produced the receiver. In this case, charges against the 3D printer operator would likely be unlawful manufacture of a firearm, possibly in addition to charges related to interstate transfer of a firearm. Given the creativity of some US attorneys, perhaps a conspiracy case would be made alleging the buyer of the printed part 'conspired' with the printer operator.

I would also suggest a lower receiver could probably be made from materials weaker than you might imagine. The lower receiver does not bear any gas pressures from the firing of the cartridge, though the holes for the roll pins which hold the hammer and trigger in place would probably start to 'egg' after a round or two. In any case, the legal question has nothing to do with how reliable the resulting firearm is; only whether it meets certain vague and broadly-interpreted legal definitions.

[1] http://www.everydaynodaysoff.com/2010/01/25/shoestring-machi...

Re:Is Printing a Gun the Same as Buying a Gun? by wisty on Tuesday September 20, 2011 @05:49PM (#3019751)
They didn't really rule that the string was a machine gun. They sent a badly proof-read letter saying words to that effect, but their intent was to declare that a rifle jury-rigged to fire automatically (using a shoe string) was in fact an automatic weapon.

And I doubt they will declare the manufacturer of the lower receiver is manufacturing a weapon, if it's done in such an automated way. They will just change their rulings so it's a crime to order such a part. If they can't do that, they will work with whatever federal agency regulates telecommunications, and it will suddenly become a serious crime to order certain gun parts from a 3D printer.

Laws don't always change faster than technology, but they change pretty quickly when there's the right kind of pressure.

Re:Is Printing a Gun the Same as Buying a Gun? by mc32 on Tuesday September 20, 2011 @06:10PM (#3019823)
Why wouldn't a 3D print operator have people/entity sign a legal document stating that placed order would not violate any federal laws and anything which resulted in violating federal law regulation would boomerang back to the entity placing the order?
Re:Is Printing a Gun the Same as Buying a Gun? by kragen on Wednesday September 21, 2011 @12:43AM (#3020812)
You can't become innocent of a crime by someone signing a contract with you saying you're innocent of the crime.
Re:Is Printing a Gun the Same as Buying a Gun? by wnight on Wednesday September 21, 2011 @05:08AM (#3021291)
> Anybody that wishes to pretend that the legal line has been blurred will find themselves sooner or later in an excellent position to try to prove that to a very unrelenting judge.

The line is blurred, that is tautological considering the complexification of the issue. The argument would be that the blurring is enough to warrant a different interpretation of the law.

> If the legal fiction is that the lower receiver of that gun is the gun, then legally that didn't change so the method of manufacturing it is not relevant.

Likely so.

> if they don't review the orders (hard to do, after all, you can't know each and every prohibited item) then [they] are still on the hook.

In the past making a custom part required a skilled machinist familiar with common machined parts. They would more than likely recognize an unlabelled but common part.

Now a part can be made without a single human involved, or if there were they could be lesser-skilled cleaning technicians only.

In the past they'd notice what you were doing by default, unless it was severely obfuscated. Now they'd have to hire machinists to spy on customer jobs and try to guess your intent to ban 'bad' items. One is trivial, the other invasive and ultimately impossible.

It's a bit moot. They can't effectively pass a law putting the genie back in the bottle without banning 3d printing and rapid-turnaround prototyping - something which would drive the last of our development businesses away.

Re:Is Printing a Gun the Same as Buying a Gun? by presidentender on Tuesday September 20, 2011 @05:03PM (#3019567)
There's at least one instance of a guy who machined his lower from a polymer cutting board. A wooden lower is certainly within the realm of possibility, although I can't find a video of this one being fired: http://www.weaponeer.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=8035&....
Re:Is Printing a Gun the Same as Buying a Gun? by 0x12 on Tuesday September 20, 2011 @05:19PM (#3019622)
No video but he did fire it, see page 2. It cracked on the 2nd round. Interesting enough, this was made of pine, which is just about the worst possible choice short of balsa.
Re:Is Printing a Gun the Same as Buying a Gun? by presidentender on Tuesday September 20, 2011 @05:37PM (#3019706)
Obviously pine's a bad choice. I'd be surprised if some nice walnut didn't hold up longer; with laminate, you could probably see durability on par with steel.
Re:Is Printing a Gun the Same as Buying a Gun? by jerf on Tuesday September 20, 2011 @05:26PM (#3019660)
"You could always make a gun, all you needed was a lathe, some tooling, a hacksaw a file, some steel stock and a bunch of patience.... Printing a gun is just another way to get to the goal, possibly an easier one but one with its own unique challenges."

A sufficiently large quantitative change is a qualitative change. Also the debate is ultimately not about this one thing today, but about a future in which one can download and print an open-source AK-47-equivalent with only slightly more difficulty than printing a picture.

I'd contend this isn't "printing" or the definition of "making it yourself" that you'd consider here in 2011; it's a new semantic category that very few people are prepared to grapple with, least of all the law. I'd contend the law is yet to catch up with what computer programs permit people to do, it really isn't ready for how computer programs will increasingly freely impinge upon the real world. There is simply no legal category to handle this question, and many conventional ethical ones can't handle it very well either.

The only solution is to go back to first principles, but most people can't really reason on first principles.

Re:Is Printing a Gun the Same as Buying a Gun? by anelson on Tuesday September 20, 2011 @05:38PM (#3019711)
> A sufficiently large quantitative change is a qualitative change

True, but I submit this is not a sufficiently large quantitative change.

> Also the debate is ultimately not about this one thing today, but about a future in which one can download and print an open-source AK-47-equivalent with only slightly more difficulty than printing a picture.

I humbly suggest there is more to it than that, and will still be more to it than that in a future in which 3D printers can print composite materials strong enough to survive the extreme pressures of a 7.62x39mm cartridge firing a bullet down a long rifled barrel. Even if that were possible, the result of the AK-47 print job would be a whole mess of parts, including tiny pins, springs, etc. With the exception of the lower receiver, all of these parts can be bought (in the US at least) online with no government oversight or regulation. Once the parts are obtained, they must be assembled, which is not difficult for the mechanically inclined, but is considerably more difficult than printing a picture.

So, before this quantitative change:

* Obtain AK-47 spec and assembly instructions * Obtain necessary tools for assembly * Order AK-47 parts kit online * Buy AK-47 lower receiver from firearms dealer, or assemble yourself from sheet metal * Assemble AK-47

After this quantitative change:

* Obtain AK-47 spec and assembly instructions * Obtain AK-47 3D printer files * Obtain assembly tools printer files * Print AK-47 parts * Print AK-47 lower receiver * Assemble AK-47

Hardly a revolutionary shift.

Legally I don't see any sticky issue here, and if there's an ethical dilema I don't see it. Having said that, I agree with the general proposition that the law has not kept pace with technological innovation, and that there are areas in which this lag has serious consequences.

Re:Is Printing a Gun the Same as Buying a Gun? by sliverstorm on Tuesday September 20, 2011 @05:28PM (#3019665)
Can you please clarify how "printing" and making by hand are different, besides one being easier?
Re:Is Printing a Gun the Same as Buying a Gun? by jerf on Tuesday September 20, 2011 @05:34PM (#3019693)
Being easier by orders of magnitude is my point. That matters. You can't just wave the problem away by declaring it's just a quantitative change, because it's a big enough quantitative change to become a qualitative change.

In fact, quantitative changes that become qualitative changes by being large enough are the entire reason we're having this discussion in the first place! It's perfectly possible to kill a person with just your hands. "All" a gun does is make it easier... but trying to dismiss all of the legal and moral questions around guns by claiming that it's only a difference of degree, not kind, isn't going to convince very many people. A big enough quantitative change is a qualitative change.

Re:Is Printing a Gun the Same as Buying a Gun? by 0x12 on Tuesday September 20, 2011 @05:43PM (#3019724)
That's a good point. I do believe that to people that are a bit more handy with tools the change isn't nearly as large as you make it out to be.

Making this part out of wood or plastic is a days work or less for a person that is moderately handy with tools, it would be probably a run of an hour for a 3D printer with some serious post processing required, say 2 hours altogether.

And that's with an investment in a 3D printer in one case and an old drillpress and some milling bits in the other, which at the moment is the lower bar to entry.

That's less than an order of magnitude.

If you could print a fully loaded ready to use weapon in a few minutes then yes, that would be a game changer. As it stands this isn't, but it may evolve in to one.

Re:Is Printing a Gun the Same as Buying a Gun? by jerf on Tuesday September 20, 2011 @05:47PM (#3019741)
"If you could print a fully loaded ready to use weapon in a few minutes then yes, that would be a game changer."

This is the interesting discussion to have, and the one I am having. And even if the weapon itself is not ready in minutes, it's easy to imagine a world in which printing the open source AK-47 is as easy as: Visit website, search for AK-47, click print on first result, eventually refill relevant cartridges. It may only pop out hours later, but it'll still be a different world than the one we live in.

I completely disagree with anelson's characterization of the difficulty; I could make "printing a web page" look as difficult if I spelled out all the steps ("purchase paper for printer, insert paper into printer..."), but that's not reflective of the real difficulty.

Remember, Thingiverse is not version 7.2.3-final. It's 0.0.1-pre-alpha. We are not at the endgame of this technology, we are at the very, very, very beginning, and even this discussion about guns is merely one high-profile example of the sorts of questions we're going to have to grapple with when the full power of software is unleashed into the physical world.

Re:Is Printing a Gun the Same as Buying a Gun? by 0x12 on Tuesday September 20, 2011 @05:56PM (#3019781)
If you haven't done so please read Singularity Sky by Charles Stross.

It's the kind of book that opens your eyes to the kind of change that you are talking about. I think that you are basically talking about a post-singularity society, that's how much change that would cause. As a result of that we can speculate about the changes but we will never ever be remotely ready for the real thing, if and when it hits.

The 0.0.1-pre-alpha of the cornucopia machine is not even close to the real thing in terms of effect, the one is a neat little machine that you can use to experiment with additive manufacturing rather than the usual subtractive methods, the other will change the world in ways we probably can not even predict.

Re:Is Printing a Gun the Same as Buying a Gun? by nickpinkston on Wednesday September 21, 2011 @03:04AM (#3021078)
As long as AK47 variants are available in my local sporting goods store for $300, I think we've got larger leaks to plug if we're trying to play collect-the-guns.
Re:Is Printing a Gun the Same as Buying a Gun? by nickpinkston on Wednesday September 21, 2011 @10:29AM (#3022106)
You don't need to - anyone who takes apart the gun will see how that works. You actually just remove one part and it's full-auto. However, books to make seers and whole weapons have been available through Paladin Publications at gun shows since the '90s and are now fully scanned and torrentable.
Re:Is Printing a Gun the Same as Buying a Gun? by khafra on Wednesday September 21, 2011 @10:09AM (#3022032)
Can you torrent a full-auto sear for them?
Re:Is Printing a Gun the Same as Buying a Gun? by tree_of_item on Tuesday September 20, 2011 @05:31PM (#3019682)
"A sufficiently large quantitative change is a qualitative change."

I think this is pretty clear: making something by hand is very different from having a magic button to do it for you. "You could have whittled it out of wood!" completely misses the point.

Unless you also think the creation of high level programming languages was not a qualitative change over the days of punch cards.

Re:Is Printing a Gun the Same as Buying a Gun? by sliverstorm on Tuesday September 20, 2011 @05:51PM (#3019765)
The creation of high level programming languages is not analogous to easier gun making. It would be more analogous to easier gun making accelerating the pace of firearms development and resulting in firearms that are orders of magnitude more lethal.
Re:Is Printing a Gun the Same as Buying a Gun? by sliverstorm on Tuesday September 20, 2011 @05:26PM (#3019661)
I find it sad that manufacturing your own firearm is seen as magical enough to warrant an article like this one. Thank you for not being caught up in forgetting that things can be made with your hands.
Re:Is Printing a Gun the Same as Buying a Gun? by 0x12 on Tuesday September 20, 2011 @05:59PM (#3019789)
Home made semiconductors, that's hard! :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PdcKwOo7dmM

Mechanics is easy.

Re:Is Printing a Gun the Same as Buying a Gun? by tnc on Wednesday September 21, 2011 @12:55PM (#3022757)
To keep up with your point:

There is one guy who got arrested in Brazil because he protected his house with improvised guns made with mousetraps.

http://translate.google.com.br/translate?sl=pt&tl=en&...

Re:Is Printing a Gun the Same as Buying a Gun? by georgieporgie on Tuesday September 20, 2011 @04:39PM (#3019467)
This is not 'printing a gun',

But it (kind of) is, specifically with regards to US law. I mean, that's the point. There is a huge market for AR-15 upgrade parts, and everything else can be acquired easily with no regulation.

And yes, this could be made at home with old technology, but it requires a fair amount of dedication and skill. Downloading a file and clicking 'print' is a significantly different process.

Re:Is Printing a Gun the Same as Buying a Gun? by 0x12 on Tuesday September 20, 2011 @04:45PM (#3019492)
> But it requires a fair amount of dedication and skill

To specifically address that point, you could use a 5 axis machining center and a standardized control sequence ('G-codes') to do the exact same thing.

I think the bigger difference is the amount of funds that needs to be put on the table for the machine itself.

Once you have the rig set up for a part the major operations are mounting the blank, hitting 'start' and removing the finished part (assuming it can be made in one pass).

Re:Is Printing a Gun the Same as Buying a Gun? by georgieporgie on Tuesday September 20, 2011 @05:29PM (#3019670)
you could use a 5 axis machining center

That's extremely expensive equipment that you're not going to have at home without a lot of dedication and investment.

You could always send something off to eMachineShop.com, but that's still not really comparable to the not-so-distant future where we'll all have easy access to local 3D printers.

Re:Is Printing a Gun the Same as Buying a Gun? by commandar on Tuesday September 20, 2011 @06:05PM (#3019808)
>That's extremely expensive equipment that you're not going to have at home without a lot of dedication and investment.

You can stamp AK receivers with little more than a hydraulic shop press and a simple jig, followed by either riveting or welding things in place. That's totally within the realm of many home workshops, and people have been doing so for years.

Re:Is Printing a Gun the Same as Buying a Gun? by georgieporgie on Tuesday September 20, 2011 @07:58PM (#3020127)
That is still wildly beyond the level of effort which will be required to do a 3D print job in only a few years.
Re:Is Printing a Gun the Same as Buying a Gun? by commandar on Tuesday September 20, 2011 @08:07PM (#3020153)
Perhaps so, but the point is that manufacturing receivers is already fairly trivial compared to the rest of a firearm since it's a low stress part, and that this is already well-covered legal ground.

Even if 3D printing reaches the ubiquity of everyone having the equipment at home, 3D printers will not be capable of producing full, functional firearms.

Re:Is Printing a Gun the Same as Buying a Gun? by georgieporgie on Tuesday September 20, 2011 @10:08PM (#3020428)
Perhaps so, but the point is that manufacturing receivers is already fairly trivial compared to the rest of a firearm since it's a low stress part

I still don't really agree with that. A stamping machine isn't particularly easier to come by than a good boring machine, in my opinion. The whole process of creating a rifle isn't terribly high-tech, as demonstrated by the vast number of cheap AK-variants flooding the world. It is still, however, beyond the skill and motivation of most people.

Even if 3D printing reaches the ubiquity of everyone having the equipment at home, 3D printers will not be capable of producing full, functional firearms.

I completely disagree with that. Given sufficient time, it seems inevitable that we will have 3D printer medium capable of containing the high pressure of even a rifle.

Re:Is Printing a Gun the Same as Buying a Gun? by 0x12 on Wednesday September 21, 2011 @03:43AM (#3021140)
> Given sufficient time, it seems inevitable that we will have a 3D printer medium capable of containing the high pressure of even a rifle.

Materials science doesn't magically provide you with new materials and and structural side effects just because you give it enough time.

The physical properties of 3D printed stuff, be it full metal parts or plastics are typically a notch below that of the same substance when used in a reductive setup (ie, milling, turning, drilling etc).

The reason for that is that depositing the material layer by layer from a grain or a wire (or a fluid) means that you have to fuse all those layers. Essentially a solid, defect free chunk of a hardwood tree is about as good as it gets when you are composing from parts (molecules in that case).

And the hardest of hardwoods can just about compete with the softest of the metals used for structural elements (but are still a notch above most plastics).

Cast metal (also an additive process) still requires some re-work, and 3D printed parts that have to be made to a certain precision require (skilled) re-work as well.

It is possible that you are right but at the moment that is pure speculation and I don't think it seems inevitable at all.

The one exception I would like to make to all this is a single-shot, single-use firearm. That might be possible, something that would just need one round, and which you'd dispose of after firing. The accuracy would be horrible (no way to sight it in) and it would be a pretty bulky thing compared to its efficiency but I think that might be possible, even with todays printers. Extrapolating from that to future materials you might get more accuracy but I doubt you'd ever go over that single shot unless the gun is to be as much a risk to the user as it is to the target.

On another note, a fake gun is sometimes just as effective as a real one, and printing fake guns is definitely a possibility.

Re:Is Printing a Gun the Same as Buying a Gun? by commandar on Wednesday September 21, 2011 @04:31AM (#3021229)
> A stamping machine isn't particularly easier to come by than a good boring machine, in my opinion.

A basic shop press which is sufficient to stamp AK receivers can be had for under $200. That's not even in the same league as basic CNC equipment, and hardly out of reach for anyone that decided they wanted to homebrew a receiver.

>I completely disagree with that.

As 0x12 also notes, you're being hugely optimistic about the material sciences involved. Even when using steel, barrels are either milled or hammer-forged, not cast, to achieve sufficient strength.

Even when you're talking about small parts, like extractors, MIM[1] parts are absolutely notorious for being prone to breakage or being out-of-spec.

Color me highly skeptical that plastic-based additive printing is going to catch up to or surpass what we know about metalworking any time soon.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metal_Injection_Molding

Re:Is Printing a Gun the Same as Buying a Gun? by 0x12 on Tuesday September 20, 2011 @05:47PM (#3019739)
Fine, so cast it using the lost wax method and clean it up. There are literally a hundred different ways in which you could make this part for pennies and some of those methods would be much more rapid and much cheaper than 3D printing.
Re:Is Printing a Gun the Same as Buying a Gun? by georgieporgie on Tuesday September 20, 2011 @08:02PM (#3020142)
Are you seriously trying to suggest that carving the part plug, building a box, acquiring appropriate sand, packing the part into the sand, acquiring and melting metal, pouring said metal, then finishing the part's surface is anything like the ease of downloading, printing, and waiting?

Yes, building a 3D printer is an investment now. But cheap, common 3D printers are going to become a reality, and soon.