Tesla to recall vehicles that may disobey stop signs

Re:Tesla to recall vehicles that may disobey stop signs by celsoazevedo on Tuesday February 01, 2022 @03:01PM (#30168366)

The camera alone seems to see a lot:

- 2018: https://youtu.be/_1MHGUC_BzQ

- 2021: https://youtu.be/XfqabC_akV0

Is the car reacting to what it's seeing? Probably not, but I'm not sure if adding a lidar fixes that.

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Re:Tesla to recall vehicles that may disobey stop signs by dmitriid on Tuesday February 01, 2022 @05:31PM (#30170484)

> The camera alone seems to see a lot:

In perfect conditions, on a sunny day.

I'm in Sweden, and the sun shining directly into your eyes from barely above the horizon while the road is wet/covered with snow and reflects that sun at you is a regular occurence during winter months. I odubt Tesla's camera will be able to see anything.

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Re:Tesla to recall vehicles that may disobey stop signs by tragictrash on Tuesday February 01, 2022 @06:40PM (#30171383)

This is the reason why a single camera alone is not capable of being the sole source of information for a self-driving system. The technology currently available for camera systems does not capture a high enough dynamic range to be able to see details in darkness when the Sun in in frame. You could use multiple cameras all with different sensitivities to light and combine them, but it's going to be very difficult.

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Re:Tesla to recall vehicles that may disobey stop signs by himinlomax on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @05:37AM (#30175902)

I really don't see what's difficult. You don't even need multiple cameras, you can simply use very short exposures and combine short exposure shots into a longer exposure one when needed. Multiple cameras are useful to handle glare though.

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Re:Tesla to recall vehicles that may disobey stop signs by tragictrash on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @11:12AM (#30179524)

I think you two just proved my point

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Re:Tesla to recall vehicles that may disobey stop signs by nine_k on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @01:11AM (#30174382)

Why would it be very difficult? You can split the same light beam after the lens, and send it to two cameras with different diaphragm or sensitivity. You'd then synthesize a perfectly aligned HDR picture.

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Re:Tesla to recall vehicles that may disobey stop signs by tragictrash on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @11:12AM (#30179527)

I think you two just proved my point

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Re:Tesla to recall vehicles that may disobey stop signs by dragontamer on Tuesday February 01, 2022 @07:55PM (#30172095)

Its because Tesla cars are regularly causing "phantom braking" events.

Tesla is trapped between a rock and a hard place. Their "phantom braking" events are causing a lot of dismay to their drivers (https://electrek.co/2021/11/15/tesla-serious-phantom-braking...). But if they reduce phantom-braking, they increase the chance of hitting that child on the road.

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Re:Tesla to recall vehicles that may disobey stop signs by SEJeff on Tuesday February 01, 2022 @11:25PM (#30173688)

Elon claims that the radar was the primary source of phantom braking. He said that matching up a high fidelity sensor (the cameras) with a lower fidelity sensor (the radar) was proving near impossible. I also suspect the supply chain pains massively factored into his decision to remove the radar from all vehicles since roughly late January of last year.

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Re:Tesla to recall vehicles that may disobey stop signs by buildbot on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @01:09AM (#30174365)

Anyone in the car industry would know this as obviously false? Radar based emergency breaking is availability and works really well in many cars from 5+ years ago.

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Re:Tesla to recall vehicles that may disobey stop signs by SEJeff on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @01:32AM (#30174494)

I’m not debating the validity. This is literally what Elon said.

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Re:Tesla to recall vehicles that may disobey stop signs by dragontamer on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @02:29AM (#30174790)

Radar was removed in May 2021, which predates the article I quoted by multiple months.

I'm sure Elon was blaming Radar for phantom braking in the April / May time period. We can give a few months for the cars to update to the newest version as well.

But by November 2021, RADAR was no longer a relevant excuse. I think you may be mistaken about when Elon said what and when. You gotta keep the dates in mind.

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Re:Tesla to recall vehicles that may disobey stop signs by SEJeff on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @02:59AM (#30174946)

Respectfully, you’re incorrect on the date of the Tesla vision only hardware release. My wife got a model y in early Feb 2021 and it was in the first batch of Tesla vision vehicles that did not ship with a radar. It was manufacturered in January as that’s when we got the VIN. This is first hand experience, not heresay. Elon announced it after they’d been shipping those vehicles for a bit. I was both amused and surprised. She was pissed off that Autopilot was nerfed compared to my 2018 model 3 for max speed as they were working out bugs in the Tesla Vision branch of the code.

I also never said a date about when Elon said those things in my comment, but now understand what you mean about post-vision. But the FSD Beta and Autopilot codebases are so different I am not sure I’d compare them for phantom braking (though recent FSD Beta appears to have way less of this occurrence).

But maybe I’m biased. We have two Teslas, one with, and one without a radar. We’ve seen much more phantom braking with my radar equipped model 3. Anecdotally, I find it happening less in the Y. Also, I didn’t click the article originally as Fred is a click diva and generally disliked by the Tesla community for his questionable reporting. Electrek is an EV fan blog, not much else.

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Re:Tesla to recall vehicles that may disobey stop signs by dragontamer on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @10:21AM (#30178778)

https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2022/02/02/tesla-p...

WashPo reports a huge spike of federal complaints from Tesla owners starting in Oct 2021, well into the Vision-only Tesla technology

These are some pretty respectable sources. Federal complaints are public.

> “We primarily drove the car on two-lane highways, which is where the issues would show themselves consistently,” he said in an email. “Although my 2017 Model X has phantom braked before, it is very rare, the vision-based system released May 2021 is night and day. We were seeing this behavior every day.”

So we have Electrek, Washington Post, and the official NHTSA Federal registry in agreement over these phantom braking events spiking in October / November timeframe of 2021. I don't think this is an issue you can brush off with anecdotal evidence or anti-website kind of logic.

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Re:Tesla to recall vehicles that may disobey stop signs by SEJeff on Thursday February 03, 2022 @01:48AM (#30189483)

That’s totally fair. I’m not pretending it isn’t a problem. Phantom braking is scary as hell when you’re on the highway. I misread your comment on the date and think that’s the thing you really focused on, when I didn’t. You’re right. This is a serious problem.

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Re:Tesla to recall vehicles that may disobey stop signs by y4mi on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @07:03AM (#30176431)

He also says that creating a Hyperloop is "not that hard"

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