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Re:The Google Wallet, a lifetime log of your purchases by jrockway on Monday September 19, 2011 @04:25AM (#3012766)
So let's say everyone on earth gets my search history and purchase history. What bad things will happen to me?
Re:The Google Wallet, a lifetime log of your purchases by swombat on Monday September 19, 2011 @07:02AM (#3013061)
You buy some gay sex toys, search for gay sex info, etc. Maybe you try out gay sex, because you're sort of curious. It's not for you, but oh well. Ten years later, homosexuality is made illegal.

Five years after that, they make homosexual practices retroactively illegal. They look through your profile and found evidence of gay activity. You go to the internment camp, never to be seen again.

If the above scenario sounds unrealistic to you, you haven't studied history well enough.

To expand the topic a bit, imagine a government like Nazi Germany or any of the communist dictatorships, but with all this information at their disposal. The Red Khmers mass-murdered people who wore glasses, on the basis that they were intellectuals. Imagine such a regime with the tools to figure out, via mass, automated profiling, exactly who all the potentially subversive elements might be, and execute them all ahead of time, leaving a population consisting mostly of nice obedient types who never read any other book than the Da Vinci Code.

Re:The Google Wallet, a lifetime log of your purchases by revorad on Monday September 19, 2011 @10:50AM (#3013751)
Following that line of reasoning, imagine 10 years from now, talking about homosexuality is made retroactively illegal. You'd be in big trouble (and now me!).

If the above scenario sounds unrealistic to you, that's right. It is unrealistic, just like the one you painted.

I'd rather not tell Google everything about myself but I'm honestly shocked that such extreme examples are being used to argue against the idea. By invoking Nazi analogies to make your point, you're actually doing a disservice to your argument. The instinct of my irrational mind is to think: well if it needs another Hitler to make it really scary, then I can probably ignore it.

Re:The Google Wallet, a lifetime log of your purchases by dctoedt on Monday September 19, 2011 @11:10AM (#3013811)
By invoking Nazi analogies to make your point, you're actually doing a disservice to your argument.

I just finished reading the NYT best-seller In the Garden of Beasts: Love, Terror, and an American Family in Hitler's Berlin [1]. It made me think that, notwithstanding Godwin's Law [2], citizens should continue to be mindful of what can happen in a 'civilized' society.

[1] http://www.amazon.com/Garden-Beasts-Terror-American-Hitlers/... (not an affiliate link).

[2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwins_law

Re:The Google Wallet, a lifetime log of your purchases by swombat on Monday September 19, 2011 @01:46PM (#3014466)
It doesn't seem all that unrealistic to me. My dad, who has actually lived in a communist dictatorship for most of his life, and experienced this type of thing first-hand, constantly criticises me for all the dangerous stuff I post online. The fact is, if such a regime comes up unexpectedly, I'll be against the wall before I know it.

My plan to deal with this is to keep extremely aware of the political evolution where I live and to make sure that if it looks like such a regime is about to take power, I'm on the other side of the world with my family when that happens.

What's your plan?

Re:The Google Wallet, a lifetime log of your purchases by chrischen on Monday September 19, 2011 @08:09PM (#3015715)
It's unrealistic in the developed world and there are actually reasons for preserving privacy besides something so extreme like the example you painted. Reasons besides simply for hiding what the gov't thinks is wrongdoing.
Re:The Google Wallet, a lifetime log of your purchases by pwenzel on Monday September 19, 2011 @11:12AM (#3013823)
My automatic Godwin's Law Filter allowed me to scan right past that argument.
Re:The Google Wallet, a lifetime log of your purchases by swombat on Monday September 19, 2011 @01:44PM (#3014452)
Government and other nation-wide institutions are one of the few things that should be designed with the worst case scenario in mind, because history has shown with admirable consistency that this worst case comes up again, and again, and again.

If you don't want "the next Hitler" you need your political system to be designed to avoid allowing "him" to happen. Communism largely failed as a system because it consistently brought out the worst dictators in each country and put them on top. Having all this data in one place has no historical precedent. It is only smart to at least consider the worst case, given the potential damage.

If you don't like the Hitler analogy, then consider something close to home:

What would the Taliban have done with all this data on their people? The answer seems pretty obvious.

Re:The Google Wallet, a lifetime log of your purchases by shabda on Monday September 19, 2011 @09:46AM (#3013502)
Its probably over the top, but combined with the HTTPS fiasco we have seen, you dont even need Google to be evil, just someone with a compromised HTTPS certs.
Re:The Google Wallet, a lifetime log of your purchases by iand on Monday September 19, 2011 @09:16AM (#3013395)
Disregarding the likelihood of this scenario panning out, what is special about the combination of purchase and search history? In your scenario just having purchased some toys or searched for gay sex is enough to incriminate you, they don't have to be pre-linked by Google.
Re:The Google Wallet, a lifetime log of your purchases by swombat on Monday September 19, 2011 @09:36AM (#3013462)
I guess the difference is the "one stop shop" nature of it.

With everything linked onto one site, all you need is for that future oppressive government to have access to Google's archives to know everything about you - whether it was in the form of a purchase, a search, an email, a calendar item, a shared document subsequently deleted, a visit on a site with doubleclick or google ads, etc.

It's a totalitarian regime's wet dream come true.

"I don't like X anymore, give me all the dirt on him." "Here you go."

Or even, criticising the bundling together of any multiple services:

"The town of X is too libertarian. Send everyone a file outlining the illegal things each of them has done over the last 20 years online which would make them liable to immediate internment."

Even just the fact that google owns AdSense could be a problem from this point of view:

"Round up all those who ever arrived on a google-monitored page via hacker-news links. People from that place are 98% more likely to be subversive. I want them all shot."

It's not paranoia if they really are out to get you. And history shows that sometimes, they are.

Re:The Google Wallet, a lifetime log of your purchases by spot on Monday September 19, 2011 @09:11AM (#3013375)
as noted by the original article, just using your credit card already gives you that problem.
Re:The Google Wallet, a lifetime log of your purchases by OoTheNigerian on Monday September 19, 2011 @01:09PM (#3014320)
You do not even need to go that far. What happens if another group of people become in charge of Google. The data is already with them.

No single entity should be made so powerful, the temptation to abuse it is just too high.

Re:The Google Wallet, a lifetime log of your purchases by mapleoin on Monday September 19, 2011 @04:51AM (#3012812)
Let's say you like tomato sauce very much and you buy too much of it. Your neighbor three doors down from where you live is found dead one day in his bathtub. He was drowned in tomato sauce which the bathtub is full of.

You're the prime suspect, even though you didn't even know your neighbor, you've never spoken to him in your life and didn't even know he existed. The only incriminating evidence the police have found on anyone so far is your purchase history (or maybe you also googled for "death by tomato sauce drowning" once when you were in high-school?). If everything turns out alright you enjoy being interrogated for a few days and have a good story to tell for the rest of your life.

Re:The Google Wallet, a lifetime log of your purchases by iand on Monday September 19, 2011 @09:10AM (#3013373)
How is this different from your local store pointing you out as the guy who bought 3 crates of ketchup last month?
Re:The Google Wallet, a lifetime log of your purchases by swombat on Monday September 19, 2011 @09:37AM (#3013464)
Efficiency.
Re:The Google Wallet, a lifetime log of your purchases by mikeklaas on Monday September 19, 2011 @12:52PM (#3014264)
So, slightly less time until you get fucked? Not exactly a compelling problem.
Re:The Google Wallet, a lifetime log of your purchases by spot on Monday September 19, 2011 @09:13AM (#3013387)
this has nothing to do with the search history.
Re:The Google Wallet, a lifetime log of your purchases by yayadarsh on Monday September 19, 2011 @11:36AM (#3013930)
It has everything to do with purchase history, which is the topic of the thread.
Re:The Google Wallet, a lifetime log of your purchases by spot on Tuesday September 20, 2011 @09:40AM (#3017472)
No, sorry, this thread is about Google Wallet, and the possible linking of search history to purchase history. Just plain purchase history is made with any regular credit card.
Re:The Google Wallet, a lifetime log of your purchases by thaumaturgy on Monday September 19, 2011 @04:46AM (#3012803)
It's interesting, isn't it? Not very long ago, it was important to people to maintain certain kinds of privacy, a "healthy paranoia", a division between the lives they led at work and at home and elsewhere.

Now, there are a lot of people asking that same question: so what if an advertiser knows more about my habits than I do? So what if someone from work sees my vacation photos?

And, maybe, if everyone sort of agrees that all this is OK, then it really will be.

Some people are still clinging on to their healthy paranoia, though. I don't trust any company, large or small, not to harm me if it suits their bottom line -- even if I'm not imaginative enough to guess how they might do that.

Re:The Google Wallet, a lifetime log of your purchases by swombat on Monday September 19, 2011 @07:16AM (#3013088)
That works just fine until a totalitarian government takes power. See my other comment for details...
Re:The Google Wallet, a lifetime log of your purchases by Symmetry on Monday September 19, 2011 @09:50AM (#3013518)
Isn't the fact that more people have more to lose in the event of totalitarianism sort of a good thing, in that it makes totalitarianism less likely?
Re:The Google Wallet, a lifetime log of your purchases by pavel_lishin on Monday September 19, 2011 @01:13PM (#3014336)
Are you certain that it makes totalitarianism less likely?
Re:The Google Wallet, a lifetime log of your purchases by netcan on Monday September 19, 2011 @09:10AM (#3013374)
In fact, maybe this separation between work "you," private "you" and other yous is a problem.
Re:The Google Wallet, a lifetime log of your purchases by shabda on Monday September 19, 2011 @09:45AM (#3013496)
Ah, the Eric Shcmidt defence: "If you have something that you don't want anyone to know, maybe you shouldn't be doing it in the first place."
Re:The Google Wallet, a lifetime log of your purchases by esrauch on Monday September 19, 2011 @10:13AM (#3013597)
Maybe it's "If you have something that you don't want anyone to know, maybe we should work towards building a world where it wouldn't matter if people knew".
Re:The Google Wallet, a lifetime log of your purchases by netcan on Wednesday September 21, 2011 @07:56AM (#3021593)
No. Just saying that perhaps being seperate people isn't as good for you.
Re:The Google Wallet, a lifetime log of your purchases by chrischen on Monday September 19, 2011 @07:33AM (#3013114)
People might prematurely judge you based on the incomplete snapshot of your activities.

That is probably the fundamental reason why it's bad. It's either everything open, and everyone understands everybody, or complete privacy and disclosure of information on your terms. The former is impossible to attain. If you have something in the middle where random snapshots of yourself leak out like that, the data should be useless since no one can form 100% certain conclusions from it. But people will no doubt try to form conclusions from that incomplete data anyways. This could be accusing you of a crime, or simply thinking less of you. The only right way is to ask you and for you to reply honestly. We probably can't achieve a totally honest world like that either, but we should strive for one where we depend less on privacy leaks and more on direct honest communication.

Re:The Google Wallet, a lifetime log of your purchases by pbhjpbhj on Monday September 19, 2011 @08:52AM (#3013312)
>People might prematurely judge you based on the incomplete snapshot of your activities. //

They do that now.

Re:The Google Wallet, a lifetime log of your purchases by chrischen on Monday September 19, 2011 @06:23PM (#3015459)
And that's not a good thing which is why we should strive to minimize it, however impossible it is to achieve perfection.
Re:The Google Wallet, a lifetime log of your purchases by pbhjpbhj on Tuesday September 20, 2011 @05:03AM (#3016870)
You have to make judgements about a person to interact with them, what level of understanding they have on the subject, what sort of vocabulary they'll understand, whether they are likely to judge you harshly, how to make them feel comfortable with you, etc.. Either you have incomplete information, you have all information or you have no information and presumably then avoid interaction. To be practical I think that it is actually a necessary part of social interaction, at present, to judge others based on incomplete data.

However, I could see the point where interactions would start by exchange of a data file, giving far more information than we ever normally get from even an acquaintance, which would aid interactions.

On the contrary I can't see how things can work without making judgements about people (what language to start a conversation in for example) when interacting.

Re:The Google Wallet, a lifetime log of your purchases by the_gws on Monday September 19, 2011 @05:42AM (#3012929)
All the examples of "bad" things that can happen reported here can already happen today because credit card companies already log all your transactions. The key point Jacques makes in his article is the the novelty will be in associating purchase history with web search history. It would interesting if somebody comes up with an example related to this new combination - I can't think of any top of my head. And while I don't blindly trust Google I surely trust them more than the financial companies that already have my purchase data.
Re:The Google Wallet, a lifetime log of your purchases by naner on Monday September 19, 2011 @10:09AM (#3013583)
So let's say everyone on earth gets my search history and purchase history. What bad things will happen to me?

Privacy is valuable because is respects human dignity, not because it protects you from bad things. I imagine nothing bad would happen to you if I rifled through your underwear drawer and read all your text messages but it isn't really a respectful thing to do.

Re:The Google Wallet, a lifetime log of your purchases by 0x12 on Monday September 19, 2011 @05:05AM (#3012847)
You could get arrested if the mix of stuff you buy accidentally matches a list of ingredients on a watch list.

Sometimes it doesn't even take a mix but just a single ingredient:

http://consumerist.com/2009/09/grandmother-arrested-for-buyi...

You argument is the same as the "I've got nothing to hide, why should I be worried" argument in another dress.

The flip side of that coin is that your imagination should not be the deciding factor in whether or not you care about your privacy. What bad things you can or can not envision today isn't all that important, it is simply that an expectation of privacy is something that should be yours without having to ask for it.

Re:The Google Wallet, a lifetime log of your purchases by tonfa on Monday September 19, 2011 @07:12AM (#3013080)
The shrinking of privacy when buying stuff isn't new.

Everything is already there with credit card payment. Most governments/judiciary system can already ask for this data (and it is tied to a real life identity).

Edit: and since like many people I already lost that battle (I use CC for most purchases), I might as well get some benefits out of it.

My CC company doesn't offer me any fancy spending tracking, and I don't trust companies like mint.com as much as I trust google to deal with my data (and I'm not sure if Mint works outside of the US).

Re:The Google Wallet, a lifetime log of your purchases by rjd on Monday September 19, 2011 @05:10AM (#3012859)
Hooker at 10 pm, roll of carpet and shovel at 2am... who knows maybe you went out for some fun and saw a discount at 24 hour importer store... maybe something else...

Silliness aside its the mistakes which are more scary than big brother actually watching, because theres just to many people to watch... but its real easy to make a mistake.

My favourite take on this scenario is the movie Brazil, the long and short of it is a guy gets pinned for a crime he didn't commit thanks to a bureaucracy error. http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0088846/

Re:The Google Wallet, a lifetime log of your purchases by tzs on Monday September 19, 2011 @07:18AM (#3013090)
On the plus side, that timeline will help you if you want to claim murdering the hooker wasn't premeditated. Claim you killed her because she pulled a knife or threatened you or it was an accident during agreed-upon rough sex, and you panicked and decided to hide the body, and plea bargain to something that won't get you too much jail time.

Without a record of when you purchased the roll of carpet and the shovel, you'd have a much harder time selling that story.

And thanks...now I'm getting a little paranoid wondering if that time I decided I needed an area rug at 2 AM and so went to an all-night Walmart is ever going to come back and hurt me.

Re:The Google Wallet, a lifetime log of your purchases by 0x12 on Monday September 19, 2011 @07:26AM (#3013104)
That's not how it works. If that was how it worked you could go and buy a roll of carpet and a shovel just to help your case. It doesn't prove that you pre-meditated the murder but it also doesn't prove that you didn't. Premeditation goes for everything, also for ways to get you off the hook.
Re:The Google Wallet, a lifetime log of your purchases by Symmetry on Monday September 19, 2011 @09:57AM (#3013537)
Well, I don't think you're any worse off than you are with credit cards now (and having a good search of my own purchase history sounds sort of cool), but the problem is that you might buy something that nobody but 3 guys in some corner of a federal agency know is a felony, like import lobsters from Honduras in plastic bags. http://usgovinfo.about.com/od/rightsandfreedoms/a/alobsterst...
Re:The Google Wallet, a lifetime log of your purchases by watty on Monday September 19, 2011 @07:59AM (#3013177)
Out of all the ridiculous responses, the one I believe is "nothing".
Re:The Google Wallet, a lifetime log of your purchases by Tyrannosaurs on Monday September 19, 2011 @04:53AM (#3012816)
That depends what you've been buying.

Off the top of my head the big advantage to Google is the ability to track behaviour patterns before spending (and match them to similar patterns that didn't result in a purchase and look to modify that behaviour).

While I don't think that's a big deal, I also don't see the benefit to me in giving it to Google. Maybe that will change when I see the full service offering but from what I know at the moment this feels like I have a potential loss (privacy) and little or no potential gain.

On that assessment I wouldn't go near it.

Re:The Google Wallet, a lifetime log of your purchases by tintin on Monday September 19, 2011 @09:38AM (#3013468)
A criminal can base his activities around your profile leading all tracks to you.
Re:The Google Wallet, a lifetime log of your purchases by pointyhat on Monday September 19, 2011 @05:10AM (#3012861)
Some exaggeration for you...

You buy a Casio watch, a camping knife and a plane ticket to New York on September the 11th 2021 [1].

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Guantanamo_Bay_detainee...

Re:The Google Wallet, a lifetime log of your purchases by iand on Monday September 19, 2011 @09:19AM (#3013410)
Your credit card company knows about these purchases already. What does does linking it to your search history make different?
Re:The Google Wallet, a lifetime log of your purchases by prof_hobart on Monday September 19, 2011 @12:49PM (#3014250)
It doesn't know that you once searched for "Flight Sims" and that a couple of your emails are in Arabic.
Re:The Google Wallet, a lifetime log of your purchases by pointyhat on Monday September 19, 2011 @09:45AM (#3013492)
More context = higher probability of tripping any algorithms?
Re:The Google Wallet, a lifetime log of your purchases by Symmetry on Monday September 19, 2011 @12:59PM (#3014289)
Wouldn't more context mean that less people trip their algorithms, since then they'll be more accurate? Of course, it could be that if 10,000 trip their algorithms they won't do anything but if only 100 do they'll investigate each of them. I think that's still a different sort of thing, though.
Re:The Google Wallet, a lifetime log of your purchases by 0x12 on Monday September 19, 2011 @02:43PM (#3014730)
That's a fallacy of datamining. More data does not equate better algorithms, it equates more false positives.

As an extreme example, imagine using just random data. Any pattern you look for will occur sooner or later in pure random data. The rarity of the pattern is offset by the amount of data you generate. More data -> more patterns. That doesn't mean the incidence of the real thing increased at all.

Re:The Google Wallet, a lifetime log of your purchases by pointyhat on Monday September 19, 2011 @05:53PM (#3015364)
This in electrical engineering at least is SNR (signal to noise ratio). Noise is filtered, however the intent is to recover the signal cleanly.

Anything which is self-detrimental is likely to be part of the signal, not the noise.