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Re:Myopia treatment 'smart glasses' from Japan to be sold in... by DantesKite on Friday January 28, 2022 @01:44AM (#30111408)
You know, I always get a bunch of pushback for this, but glasses cause myopia in most people.

It induces a hormetic effect on the eyeballs, causing them to grow longer over time, inducing blurriness. As you increase the strength of the prescription glasses, the hormetic effect will continue in a feedback loop, worsening your vision as your eyeball elongates.

It's the same adaptation that causes muscles to weaken, strengthen, bones to harden, calluses to form.

"Well then, if that's true, why was my vision blurry as a child when I wasn't wearing glasses?"

The initial blurriness one experiences as a child isn't caused by glasses and is likely a consequence of the ciliary muscle becoming "exhausted" from prolonged staring up close. Your eye muscles are actually most relaxed when staring at objects in the far distance. It evolved that way. We didn't "evolve" for close up work.

We know glasses induce myopia because we can reliably cause myopia in all sorts of animals by making them wear contact lenses. There's no controversy about this. Feel free to look up the studies yourself.

What's less plausible is whether the axial elongation can be reversed in humans. And it does seem (with some effort and time) it can be, although there's considerably pushback from poorly designed scientific studies suggesting otherwise but lots of Internet communities of people who have improved their vision significantly.

You can induce a reverse hormetic effect by wearing glasses that are on the "border" of blurriness and staring at objects in the distance for long periods of time. In other words, wear slightly weaker prescription glasses than what you're currently wearing; one for close-up work and one for far distance so you're always just on the "edge" of blurriness.

You can usually improve your vision at a rate of 0.75 diopters per year if you do this consistently.

At this point, I usually get a lot of disbelief and criticisms, links to randomized controlled studies suggesting the opposite. I get into arguments trying to explain how those studies were set up wrong, people call me crazy, etc. It's pretty annoying.

So I simply offer this: If you wear glasses, try ordering a slightly weaker version from Zenni Optical (or any store of your choosing). Try it for a year. See what happens.

It's cheap. And low risk.

"Don't I need a prescription?"

You do, in the sense that you need your prescription strength number, but the word "prescription" here is a misnomer. Anybody can order prescription glasses online legally. It's like ordering socks. It is not like ordering prescription drugs. Completely different legal classifications.

But if you're still skeptical, I ask you to think about this problem from first principles for a moment.

If Homo Sapiens started naturally going blind from the age of 9, our ancestors would not have survived long. Most animals that have poor vision usually compensate with some other sense. And while it may be possible humans just naturally evolved to have terrible vision, studies of other populations (like the Moken population that can see underwater and have near-perfect vision) suggest it's likely a modern problem.

There is a stressor. What is the stressor? It's multi-variate, but the most influential in modernity is wearing glasses.

I wear two pairs. One for close-up work (so it's slightly blurry when I'm programming). And another that's much stronger (and safer) for driving. So I can see all the stop signs clearly, but the mountains in the distance are just blurry. In this way, I'm always at the "edge" of blurriness.

There's a few other techniques you can do, but that one is the easiest to maintain. (Interestingly enough, people who hike outdoors a lot seem to do the best).

As you improve you'll find yourself ordering weaker and weaker prescriptions (although the closer you get to 0 diopters, the longer it seems to take).

Re:Myopia treatment 'smart glasses' from Japan to be sold in... by krackers on Friday January 28, 2022 @01:59AM (#30111491)
N=1 but this perfectly matches my experience. I stare at a computer all day, and my power is almost exactly enough so that the screen is just on the edge of blurriness. Almost like my eyes have adapted to that focal length. This has also remained pretty stable over 10 years since I never wear the glasses for close work (why bother when I can pretty much see it fine, and increase font size if needed for fine detail).

I wonder if the reason why it takes longer as you approach 0 diopters is because at that point the signal received by the brain is enough such that the brain can learn to "deconvolve" the image (blur adaption), removing any incentive for further axial shrinking.

Edit: actually going further I wonder if the stressor you mentioned is indeed actually ciliary accommodation. This is known to be very taxing (hence why people get eye strain from looking at computers for a long time), so it makes sense that the body would adapt to relieve this stressor by elongating the eyeball itself so that the screen can now sit at optical infinity.

It is also a relatively well-known result from large correlative studies that time spent outdoors decreases the chance for myopia. I read something about how it was total luminous flux of the bright outdoors that helped to prevent progression of myopia – just something to think about, especially given the recent trend of blue light blocking glasses. Who knows if those wavelengths might actually be needed in some subtle manner for optical development.

But note that because convergence and accommodation are linked, without any accommodation there might be a greater tendency for the eye to develop exophorias. I wonder if you look at the data you might see a high correlation between exophoria and myopia?

Re:Myopia treatment 'smart glasses' from Japan to be sold in... by dspig on Friday January 28, 2022 @03:59AM (#30112296)
N=2. Similar here - even a bit of improvement after a year of using weaker glasses for computer work.
Re:Myopia treatment 'smart glasses' from Japan to be sold in... by glandium on Friday January 28, 2022 @08:04AM (#30114038)
N=3. I have a different setup, though. I have my original glasses to drive (-3.25, but they are now too strong, I need to downgrade them). Then I have glasses for other uses (-1, IIRC. They allow me to see at the limit of bluriness at 2-3 meters). And for computer work, I wear no glasses at all. Worth noting, though, that before I started, my prescription hadn't changed in 25 years.
Re:Myopia treatment 'smart glasses' from Japan to be sold in... by zmmmmm on Friday January 28, 2022 @02:05AM (#30111524)
very interesting ...

I've had tremendous frustration from optometrists insisting that I have a fixed prescription, but invariably whatever they prescribe me ends up wrong. In the end I ignored my optometrist, found a way to order online and ordered every single prescription for contacts from -5.5 to -6.5 with a couple of options for other parameters and literally just tried them all.

What I found was that my "correct" prescription really, truly varies, ... even over a period of just days. So I ended up just switching between different contacts as needed. But one effect I observed is that a great sequence was to wear slightly under-strength lenses for a week or so and then switch up a level. This seems to do what you suggest ... my eyes then slot into the correct strength with improved comfort and vision and often stabilise there.

Every now and then, everything tips over (often if I get a really bad sleep for some reason) and then I go back to the "slightly under strength" option to try and reset.

All of this I've figured out purely empiracally because I've been so unhappy with the options that multiple optometrists provided me .... so its nice to hear someone say something vaguely similar to what I experience!

Re:Myopia treatment 'smart glasses' from Japan to be sold in... by walterbell on Friday January 28, 2022 @03:02AM (#30111910)
There's a sizable community of eye fitness empiricists at https://endmyopia.org with years of discussions, measurements on improvements, videos, etc. Most of the content is free/open.
Re:Myopia treatment 'smart glasses' from Japan to be sold in... by fy20 on Friday January 28, 2022 @07:26AM (#30113745)
You might want to test to see if you have an astigmatism, in most cases you have it from birth, but I somehow developed it.

Take a look at this chart:

https://static2.feelgoodcontacts.net/images/astigmatism-degr...

Basically all the lines should look equally sharp when your vision is corrected. In my case - if I don't wear glasses and move close enough to see it clearly - the horizontal lines have a shadow going upwards, where as the vertical lines are sharp. The shadow is strongest on the 0 degree and 180 degree lines, meaning I have an astigmatism at one of those.

This doesn't tell you what the correction should be, but it tells you if you have it.

Re:Myopia treatment 'smart glasses' from Japan to be sold in... by lultimouomo on Friday January 28, 2022 @03:29AM (#30112100)
I'm glad that it worked out for you.

I ordered slightly undercorrected glasses (-2/-2.5 instead of -2.25/-2.75) exactly a year ago to try the same, and it did nothing for my myopia. I use the undercorrected glasses all the time, except when driving at night and when playing sports, and nothing has changed. I still use them all the time because the cheap frame I chose turned out to be very comfortable, more than the expensive one from my regular glasses.

At first I had some hope because for the first days using the undercorrected glasses I would end up with a strong headache in the evening; when this passed I figured that maybe my eyes had begun adjusting. But every time I try the regular and undercorrected glasses side-by-side, I see noticeably better with the regular ones (I sometimes test this just by eyeballing something afar, or by reading a home-printed Snellen chart 3 meters away).

I figured some people have glass-induced myopia, and some people just have myopia.

Re:Myopia treatment 'smart glasses' from Japan to be sold in... by walterbell on Friday January 28, 2022 @03:41AM (#30112187)
Vision therapy doesn't work for everyone, it's quite a bit of effort. Under-correction is only one component, therapy should be designed in conjunction with lifestyle.

For liability reasons (e.g. driving) optometrists tend to err on the side of stronger rather than weaker, so most prescriptions are for distance activity. If you're spending many hours with screens that are at arms length or closer, then reducing a distance-driving prescription by 0.25 may not be enough to reach the "edge of blur" for closeup vision.

The https://endmyopia.org community has more info. If you don't have the time to learn about measurements and feedback testing, look for a local optometrist who endorses vision therapy and can work iteratively with you.

This comment may be relevant: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30112144

Re:Myopia treatment 'smart glasses' from Japan to be sold in... by bjornorn on Friday January 28, 2022 @05:04AM (#30112720)
Could it be that it helps you long term in that it keeps you from needing even stronger correction?
Re:Myopia treatment 'smart glasses' from Japan to be sold in... by lultimouomo on Friday January 28, 2022 @08:46AM (#30114489)
I have had the same correction from more then 10 years, so I guess not.
Re:Myopia treatment 'smart glasses' from Japan to be sold in... by VMtest on Friday January 28, 2022 @12:29PM (#30117695)
Your experience is just like @Aulig, I saved his comment from several weeks ago in my notes

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29459590

Re:Myopia treatment 'smart glasses' from Japan to be sold in... by walterbell on Friday January 28, 2022 @03:11AM (#30111968)
Some discussion of this vision therapy approach at https://gettingstronger.org/2016/03/faq-for-vision-improveme.... It requires an investment in learning, self-testing and feedback loops, since vision varies slightly with environment and time of day. Online sales of eyeglasses has made this more practical. It works for many, but not all, reasons unclear.
Re:Myopia treatment 'smart glasses' from Japan to be sold in... by qsdf38100 on Friday January 28, 2022 @03:00AM (#30111894)
ah, nice, that explanation has always been making a lot of sense to me. I don't wear my glasses indoor and I stare at a screen for most of my day. My myopia level is actually perfect for this use case, my screen is at my "at rest" focal point, my eyes are "at rest" for most of the day, and the screen isn't blurry.

Now I couldn't find support for it anywhere so I was thinking this might be a case of a very reasonable explanation that turns out to be wrong. Is there some literature on this?

Re:Myopia treatment 'smart glasses' from Japan to be sold in... by walterbell on Friday January 28, 2022 @03:29AM (#30112101)
(potentially controversial) clinical studies on myopia progression, https://wiki.endmyopia.org/wiki/Clinical_Studies
Re:Myopia treatment 'smart glasses' from Japan to be sold in... by davide_v on Friday January 28, 2022 @05:45AM (#30113008)
You are absolutely right, I tested in on myself over several years. I want to share my story so far. Since I got a prescription of -4 I was so mad that I didn't want to wear those glasses. Furthermore I really felt like they were too "strong" for me. So I kept wearing the previous one that was at -3. Since then my myopia never got worse. But I wanted to go further and try to reverse it in some way. I have read many studies, like the one you mentioned about the animals with glasses/contact lenses that after some time develops myopia. That is the real proof that "too strong" glasses causes myopia. But what does "too strong" mean? It actually means 2 cases: the glasses that are actually stronger that the one you need (like -4 if you have -3.75), or the glasses that are used when you don't need them (short distance). In both cases you are slowly increasing your myopia (like the animal study). So to stop the myopia you just need to use the "right" correction for the "right" time. For example at PC you don't need full correction (for low myopia you don't even need glasses at all), because full correction is only for driving and looking at infinite distance. So the first thing to do, if you work at PC, is to buy less strong glasses (even super cheap one you can find on Amazon). What less strong means? It depends on your myopia and your distance from the screen. But you can calculate it using a ruler that has the diopters written on it (just print it: https://endmyopia.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/myopia-rule...). For example I've -3.5 but at PC I wear -1.5 because my screen is 70cm far. As other mentioned already, the best correction you need to use is the one that blurs the text a little bit, where you are still able to read but is not crystal clear. You may notice that this gets even harder if you have different myopia per eye, because one eye may blur, but not the other or viceversa (I still don't know what happens here, if it's better to cover 1 eye or not, etc). Btw, if you combine: less strong glasses at PC, regular intervals looking way far, no glasses for reading/phone, you will surely stop the myopia, and maybe you even improve. After years I just improved from -4 to -3.25, but it's better than nothing (and I was not so constant)... I'd love to hear some other experiences here.
Re:Myopia treatment 'smart glasses' from Japan to be sold in... by blackbear_ on Friday January 28, 2022 @02:59AM (#30111886)
> I get into arguments trying to explain how those studies were set up wrong.

I'd like to know more. Why do you think they were set up wrong? (Not trying to get into an argument, I honestly don't know)

Re:Myopia treatment 'smart glasses' from Japan to be sold in... by walterbell on Friday January 28, 2022 @03:53AM (#30112253)
The consolidated $100B industry [1] for lenses/frames may not be incentivized to fund studies which endanger their market. There are precedents [2] in other industries.

[1] https://www.theguardian.com/news/2018/may/10/the-invisible-p...

[2] https://www.ucsusa.org/resources/disinformation-playbook

Re:Myopia treatment 'smart glasses' from Japan to be sold in... by cromulent on Friday January 28, 2022 @01:38PM (#30118609)
> glasses cause myopia in most people

Would you say that glasses cure hyperopia in most people?

Re:Myopia treatment 'smart glasses' from Japan to be sold in... by zestyping on Friday January 28, 2022 @02:08AM (#30111542)
How much weaker is "slightly weaker"? What if you have astigmatism?
Re:Myopia treatment 'smart glasses' from Japan to be sold in... by krackers on Friday January 28, 2022 @03:23AM (#30112055)
You can calculate the prescription you need for a distance using simple optical physics (inverse diopter is the focal plane in meters. E.g. if your prescription is -2, then uncorrected your focal plane will be 1/2 meters. If you use a +1.25 add (so wear a -0.75 net lens diopter), then your new focal plane is 1/1.25 meters). That would be a good start if you usually wear full-strength for close work.

It's said that -0.25 diopters is not noticeable by 50% of population, and especially for base prescriptions <= -2 ish the scale of distance quickly becomes negligible (e.g. a +1.25 add would give 31 inches and a +1.5 add is 26 inches, so only a 5" difference which is basically negligible. Also note that as one commenter noted, I've found my focusing ability changes throughout the day and also based on stress, sleep level etc., so that on a good day I might not need the glasses at all to see up to 32".

A final point is that if you end up going too weak you might find your posture being affected as you inch your neck forward to try to adjust. You could consciously try to prevent this, but I'm sure involuntary habits will kick in, so I think it's better to just choose a prescription precisely calculated for the focal length you want.

In principle the stressor explanation would hold for astigmatism as well, and you could try the same of reducing the cylindrical power as well. N=1 but I've found astigmatism is more easily corrected by the brain, such that you might not even need correction for a -1 cyl power whereas you'd definitely see blurriness at -1 sph.

Re:Myopia treatment 'smart glasses' from Japan to be sold in... by walterbell on Friday January 28, 2022 @03:13AM (#30111980)
For astigmatism, proponents of this approach will gradually alter the cylinder value, https://wiki.endmyopia.org/wiki/Astigmatism