> But regardless of men or women neither should be dictating how some woman want to show their body.

But, they can dictate how some men want to show their body? *shakes head*

Firstly, you claimed that men are the problem, not that people who object are the problem. This new claim is a different claim.

Secondly, whether you like it or not, women are more likely to complain of male nudity in a venue than men are to complain of female nudity in a venue, yet you want to portray the argument as "men are the problem".

Your argument only works in your head because you draw an artificial distinction between men and women, and you want to "protect" the women. Treat everyone as people and your argument falls over.

Distill your argument to the essential bits:

1. Does a person have a right to show whatever part of their body that they want to?

Sure.

2. Do people have to be forced to see that display in a public venue?

Depends on what the society has decided on.

3. Should the rule be based on whether the viewer/displayer is female or male?

Most definitely not.

> But, they can dictate how some men want to show their body? shakes head

You're making this a gender war thing. It's not about who gets to dictate what to whom. It's about why something is dictated and who it's benefitting.

For genitalia, both genders are not allowed to show theirs. This is acceptable because it's fair.

For breasts, men can show theirs, yet women cannot.

For skirts: too short and a woman is labeled slutty. Why? Because people who sexualize them (often men) view them as sexy and wanting sex. And so these people then dictate that they should wear longer skirts so that they don't feel so guilty themselves. This ends up being one party dictating how the other should appear in order to accommodate their own needs.

Men can wear short or long. It's ok because generally women do not sexualize men in that way. But the point here is that the viewpoint of immodesty comes from the viewer, and women have no control in how they are viewed by others, therefore they should not have to adjust themselves to accommodate for something they have no control over.

> 1. Does a person have a right to show whatever part of their body that they want to? >> Sure.

No that is not my argument. I accept the laws that both genders cannot show their genitals or sexual organs. If we enacted a law that said all people have to hide their mouths I'd be in full support. We don't have such a law but we are close to it (face masks for covid). What I am against is unequal laws enacted by one group on another to accommodate the first or other group.

> 3. Should the rule be based on whether the viewer/displayer is female or male? >> Most definitely not.

This is not about male or female. This is about one group forcing their preference on another group to accommodate their own needs.

> Men can't wear "too short" because men's pants are not made that short. You’re completely missing the point. If men did wear shorts as short as a woman they might be perceived to be weird, but not sexualized in the way a woman would be.

Men do have breasts. They are simply not as enlarged. But again you are missing the point because a flat-chested woman would not be allowed to show her breasts either. Maybe men are just better genetically because we are not born so immodest?

My argument summed up is that woman have certain non-sex related body parts (could be hips, could be breasts) that have certain display requirements thrust upon them because they cause sexualized ideas in another group of people (mostly men). As a society we decided that these sexualized thoughts are bad and should be stopped. OK, that’s acceptable. However the method we decided to do that is to tell the women to hide those parts so the other group is not tempted. Problem solved. However woman are being forced to modify themselves by society in order to fix a problem inherently caused by another group. They have no control over how the other group perceives them, so they shouldn’t be the ones having to adjust constantly to others’ perceptions.

It used to be that fat was sexy. Who knows, maybe in the future it will be flat chested. Depending on what men become sexualized by, women have to constantly change their appearance so as not to tempt man.

If you don’t find that ridiculous, let’s sub it out with a similar example. Imagine a group of white people who, whenever they see black people, felt “uncomfortable” because black people in their minds are associated with crime, thugs, etc. Let’s say that, in uncommon instances, the white people felt threatened and may have started fights if the black people looked particularly like criminals, or maybe the black people felt prejudiced and started fights. Let’s say the government’s solution to the problem was to segregate the black people from the white people, but they did so by telling the black people to not live in existing white neighborhoods. Problem solved because the instances of black on white confrontation are abated. Is it fair though? No, because it’s inconveniencing black people in order to solve a problem caused by the view point of white people. Black people can’t control how others view them, and if the problems are inherently caused by those misguided viewpoints then we should be 1) fixing those viewpoints and 2) telling people with those viewpoints to deal with it.

When you look at something like Borat's swimming suit, it is ridiculed specifically because it is sexualized. However, for men that swimming suit generally results in a negative sexual interest, and it's why you hardly find men wearing it. In gay parades you find plenty of men wearing ultra tight shorts, specifically because they sexualize. How can't they? They are specifically designed to highlight the genital areas.

As a second point about breasts, human breasts are unique in the animal kingdom because they are specifically made to signal sexual availability. Generally animals do not have enlarged breasts, even when lactating. In humans the woman breast evolved to enlarge when sexual maturity is reached to signal sexual availability. So saying that boobs are just a body part that men sexualize is also incorrect.

> Secondly, whether you like it or not, women are more likely to complain of male nudity in a venue than men are to complain of female nudity in a venue, yet you want to portray the argument as "men are the problem".

Source? Anecdotally living in the South, it is overwhelmingly men complaining about women not properly conforming to their sensibility regarding modesty.

I've never heard it the other way around, and you claiming it is an undisputed fact "where I like it or not" is bizarre to me.

I've mostly heard men and women complaining about female nudity, but then you have flashers.

Unfortunately the comment asking for clarification has been flagged into oblivion, so I'll repeat my clarifying comment here:

I definitely did not intend to say that Naomi Wu is like a flasher, and I appreciate your implicit request for clarification.

I meant that I frequently hear both men and women criticize specifically women for nudity, especially when the critics are from the US, and I very rarely hear them criticizing men for nudity. When men do get criticized for nudity, it's usually in a circumstance where the nudity is being interpreted as a threat, such as a flasher, which is a very different situation than posting a video of laser-cutting a dressmaker's dummy.

I definitely did not intend to say that Naomi Wu is like a flasher, and I appreciate your implicit request for clarification.

I meant that I frequently hear both men and women criticize specifically women for nudity, especially when the critics are from the US, and I very rarely hear them criticizing men for nudity. When men do get criticized for nudity, it's usually in a circumstance where the nudity is being interpreted as a threat, such as a flasher, which is a very different situation than posting a video of laser-cutting a dressmaker's dummy.

Gotcha appreciate the clarification. Yeah that's an important distinction between violating some norm regarding how "modest" women are required to be and the overtly violent nature of sexual harassment by men.

Idk, I think he's got you with the "sub out for dick" thing.

We live in an (I hope) egalitarian democracy and what's acceptable to display is dictated by our polis. Can this same be said regarding women wearing burkas in Afghanistan.

>most men don't want to be tempted by seeing boobs Just lol

A woman's boob is not equivalent to a man's penis. If anything, a vagina is is the equivalent to a penis, as both organs are used as part of sex. A boob is not normally used as part of sex. That being said, if we all agree that no genders can show their sexual organs then that's fine. That's at least an equally applied rule.

However the issue here is that some men, and some women too, find it bothers them to see boobs, but only female boobs. It's irrelevant if some woman happen to agree, because a woman can still oppress woman, just as a Chinese person can still be racist towards Chinese people.

If a women dressing sexy (but otherwise within the generally accepted constraints of not showing genitalia or nipples) and then gets raped by a person (man or woman), is it her fault or the person's fault? Is she asking for it by dressing sexy? Sexy here is in the eye of the rapist, and whether the women thinks she is dressing sexy herself is irrelevant, so I would argue that it is the rapist's fault. If a woman does something to her outward appearance such as enlarging her breasts or dressing "immodestly" and it causes weird feelings or urges in some people, those feelings are wholly the fault of the person feeling them.

Wow, in what world is there a debate over who's fault it is that a woman gets raped?

You didn't respond to my points about skin exposure being a social norm. We choose to show/hide genitals, breasts, ankles, feet, etc based on a region by region basis.

There are people who believe that if a woman who dresses sexy walks through a dangerous area and gets raped, it is her fault for “asking for it.”

It wasn't even her breasts. It was a cardboard dummy shaped like her torso.