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Re:Gemini is a little gem by Jtsummers on Wednesday January 26, 2022 @03:44PM (#30091502)
My understanding of the issue as it relates to Gemini is that the Gemini community is:

1. Largely using self-signed certificates on the servers. That gets you into the protocol, but doesn't really help with trust.

2. Using "trust on first use" (TOFU) in the clients, which doesn't scale. The clients have to know whether a particular cert is valid or not, and that means the user needs to manually verify or some trusted data source has to be distributed to clients. Manual verification turns into "yeah, yeah, just let me read the page" after a while. And a trusted data source is, well, hard to keep maintained, and even harder if it wasn't in the model from the start.

So TLS gets Gemini security, of a sort, but the way it's being used makes it less effective than it should be.

Re:Gemini is a little gem by spc476 on Wednesday January 26, 2022 @04:21PM (#30092072)
The push for TOFU really only began about a year after the protocol was first designed, as it was deemed "too difficult" to obtain a real certificate, even from Let's Encrypt.

On the other hand, those that want something SSH-like for the web have something to point to as an example, as well as those that don't think SSH-like for the web is a good idea as an example.

Re:Gemini is a little gem by nine_k on Wednesday January 26, 2022 @04:45PM (#30092381)
TLS gives you protection against casual eavesdropping or tampering.

Of course, self-signed certs + TOFU theoretically allow a third party to insert itself as a MITM at the first connection. This needs a lot of tracking and preparation beforehand; no adversary of this caliber is going to be interested in Gemini content.

Re:Gemini is a little gem by tptacek on Wednesday January 26, 2022 @07:02PM (#30094012)
Adversary of what caliber? All they have to be able to do is redirect a host (for instance by poisoning a local DNS lookup); the actual exploit is trivial. They're self-signed certificates; in the absence of a "TOFU" scheme that doesn't yet meaningfully exist, they provide no security against attackers willing to spoof DNS responses.

"TOFU" is also a truly abysmal fit for any application with a mass audience (at any given time, a huge percentage of your inbounds are going to be people making their first request, all totally open to attack --- contrast that with SSH, where you make first contact with a host on a new machine fairly rarely).

Re:Gemini is a little gem by tedunangst on Wednesday January 26, 2022 @05:33PM (#30093059)
The whole point of TOFU is the user doesn't manually verify.
Re:Gemini is a little gem by Jtsummers on Wednesday January 26, 2022 @05:39PM (#30093129)
That's not really true, though. Like with SSH, the first time you receive a certificate for a server you are prompted to either trust it or not. If you choose to trust it then from that point on it remains trusted unless explicitly removed from the set of known hosts. Of course, the client could just take the option away from the user and automatically trust every host the first time. But then there's even less point in having TLS here.

Even Signal's TOFU method offers a way for users to manually verify that the keys of the people they're communicating with, even though it permits communication from the start without verification.