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Re:Doing too much work on one's own before looping in others by zachlloyd on Tuesday January 25, 2022 @12:44PM (#30075060)
I'm the author of the post - would love any feedback / similar experiences / contrasting opinions!
Re:Doing too much work on one's own before looping in others by jseban on Tuesday January 25, 2022 @02:20PM (#30076632)
The description of the "problem" is that the requirements specified in the beginning were wrong, and then the developer is blamed for solving exactly what was specified, and not constantly asking management every day "have you changed your mind?". I don't understand at all, how this is the fault of the developer, talk about expecting the developer to bend over backwards for any product manager. How is it not reasonable for management/PO to be responsible for 1. sending devs off in the wrong direction, and 2. not notifying them as requirements change?

This is just another way of saying "management is right, even when they're wrong, and you need to accept that".

Re:Doing too much work on one's own before looping in others by Jabbles on Tuesday January 25, 2022 @04:02PM (#30077964)
Non-trivial problems often require exploration of the solution space. You're not expected to ask management if they've changed their mind, you're meant to present your finding so far, and ask if they have any feedback.

Simply stating that you did as instructed is not a viable excuse for a human, that's not what they're paying you for. Computers can get away with it.

Re:Doing too much work on one's own before looping in others by jseban on Tuesday January 25, 2022 @04:18PM (#30078180)
> Simply stating that you did as instructed is not a viable excuse for a human, that's not what they're paying you for.

Getting paid for doing what someone tells you to do, is literally the definition of a job. What you're saying actually, is that it's not your job to do your job, it's your job to also do the managers/PO's job.

Re:Doing too much work on one's own before looping in others by Jensson on Tuesday January 25, 2022 @11:19PM (#30081650)
You also get paid to be the scapegoat for when your manager fails to do his job, like in this story.
Re:Doing too much work on one's own before looping in others by jkaptur on Tuesday January 25, 2022 @04:26PM (#30078298)
It's great to see "I'm still exploring X" called out as a standup antipattern. I've heard and (hi Zach!) said this many times.

... But I've generally heard it most frequently from the tech lead and/or manager at the standup. It's easy to justify: "as the TL/M, my work is ill-defined, meeting-heavy, complex, externally-focused, and long-term! I'm not just building a feature! It's hard to describe!"

In my experience, this culture percolates with lightning speed: more junior folks immediately understand that to be senior and high-status is to give vague updates (often with a dramatic sigh and a self-deprecating joke about getting nothing done).

So it's good to exhort feature-building ICs to show incremental progress on that feature, but I think this article should have a heavier focus on the most senior folks at the standup.

Re:Doing too much work on one's own before looping in others by waynecochran on Tuesday January 25, 2022 @01:55PM (#30076242)
I am an older software engineer and have noted that a lot of introverted engineers love to work in their own silos. Some of the smartest engineers are introverted and do not want to be bothered; worse yet, because of pride they often do not "suffer fools" well and avoid working with others. Working with a group of smart and humble engineers that are constantly "borrowing each other's" brain is very effective and enjoyable experience. And everyone has a good sense of what everyone else is working on -- sunk cost is more frequently avoided.
Re:Doing too much work on one's own before looping in others by nuancebydefault on Tuesday January 25, 2022 @02:21PM (#30076658)
I feel the same way. Lot's of experienced engineers don't like to be bothered too much, have the feeling they know best and just design and implement the way they have it in mind. Juniors on the other hand don't like to bring their beginners mistakes too much in the open, hence they work hard and long to avoid that. Both of these situation are largely sub-optimal. A good manager knows this and asks for feedback in time, in an interested way, without being too pushy.
Re:Doing too much work on one's own before looping in others by eatbitseveryday on Tuesday January 25, 2022 @01:26PM (#30075788)
Please write the insight into the title of the post, rather than hiding it under a click-bait. Your site is down now due to traffic and the original HN title (reflecting the title of your writing) provides no value.
Re:Doing too much work on one's own before looping in others by zachlloyd on Tuesday January 25, 2022 @02:08PM (#30076477)
yup, i messed this up, apologies. site is handling the traffic better now thanks to cloudflare
Re:Doing too much work on one's own before looping in others by friendlydog on Tuesday January 25, 2022 @03:16PM (#30077451)
I'm a fan of "always loop people in".

Frequent checkins with detailed commit messages including markdown and graphviz diagrams which state intentions.

Switching the flow from a status meeting low detail reponse of "still working on X issue" to a regular feed of detailed information which serves not only as a development log, documentation, but it crystallizes the developer's planning and thought process because they have to describe what they are doing rather than just "fixing the issue" , or "building the thing".

Persistent chat has made daily stand up status calls redundant. Stakeholders can subscribe to channels which have rich detailed information about what is happening at any given moment. For larger groups a resource can curate the channels and provide a thoughtful summary in a higher level channel of different teams progress. Tools like Azure Dev Ops provide meaningful charts, tracking, and velocity, and the deeper conversations on chat linked to work items, wikis, and repo level filea serve to provide an accurate picture for anyone looking into the effort. Leads, and managers can identify trouble spots and adjust priorities or provide valuable insights. Regular demos can also be linked and serve as a historical record of the development direction.

Re:Doing too much work on one's own before looping in others by theandrewbailey on Tuesday January 25, 2022 @12:51PM (#30075187)
I'm not sure what IC means. Integration Consultant? Industrial Control?
Re:Doing too much work on one's own before looping in others by mLuby on Tuesday January 25, 2022 @12:55PM (#30075259)
Individual contributor, in other words a worker as opposed to management. The author's using engineer to mean software developer; they're the workers in this context.
Re:Doing too much work on one's own before looping in others by disposableuname on Tuesday January 25, 2022 @01:12PM (#30075550)
> as both an IC and a manager

When juxtaposed to manager, it usually means individual contributor - someone being managed rather than doing the management.

Re:Doing too much work on one's own before looping in others by conro1108 on Tuesday January 25, 2022 @12:54PM (#30075245)
Individual contributor (as opposed to management)
Re:Doing too much work on one's own before looping in others by zachlloyd on Tuesday January 25, 2022 @01:01PM (#30075352)
Correct! IC == individual contributor. Sorry for any confusion
Re:Doing too much work on one's own before looping in others by juice_bus on Tuesday January 25, 2022 @12:54PM (#30075246)
I believe IC is "Individual Contributor" in this context.
Re:Doing too much work on one's own before looping in others by ilrwbwrkhv on Tuesday January 25, 2022 @01:10PM (#30075507)
A most bizarre terminology the industry has come up with. Almost feels a bit derogatory.
Re:Doing too much work on one's own before looping in others by zaat on Tuesday January 25, 2022 @01:49PM (#30076155)
That's the natural way languages develop, offensive terms replaces with euphemisms, given some time every euphemistic term become loaded with the same negative connotations of its origin and new euphemism get introduced.

see: https://thelingspace.tumblr.com/post/114432905996/the-euphem...

Re:Doing too much work on one's own before looping in others by Sohcahtoa82 on Tuesday January 25, 2022 @07:27PM (#30080111)
Better than grunt, peon, peasant, minion, or drone.
Re:Doing too much work on one's own before looping in others by alboy on Tuesday January 25, 2022 @03:28PM (#30077589)
Itty-bitty Cog.
Re:Doing too much work on one's own before looping in others by chrismorgan on Tuesday January 25, 2022 @08:50PM (#30080648)
I can’t load the page due to a redirect loop: it does a 301 redirect to the same URL. Observed from Australia, in Firefox, curl and Chromium, all under Linux, talking to 66.235.200.155.
Re:Doing too much work on one's own before looping in others by 908B64B197 on Tuesday January 25, 2022 @01:49PM (#30076147)
In this industry we use "developer" and "engineer" interchangeably, but one is not like the other. They don’t hand out brass rats at the end of a bootcamp…

> For early career engineers, it often happens because they lack practice working on teams. They train in school environments where they do classroom projects on their own, or work on long-term intern projects in a silo.

Serious engineering school would have student work together to ship projects.

Re:Doing too much work on one's own before looping in others by afarrell on Tuesday January 25, 2022 @01:55PM (#30076255)
Yes, MIT’s university culture does genuinely encourage a collaborative project-based approach. However, some grads will believe that the business world expects them to be as brilliant as Tony Stark and able to “carry a message to garcia”[1]. If a course-VI grad wearing brass rat thinks a request for help/feedback will be rebuffed as impostor syndrome (it happens), they can make the same mistake. Ego is the enemy. The blog post’s advice still applies.

[1] https://courses.csail.mit.edu/6.803/pdf/hubbard1899.pdf which is both historically apocryphal and only good advice when dealing with an impatient and incurious leader.

Re:Doing too much work on one's own before looping in others by grumple on Tuesday January 25, 2022 @01:06PM (#30075433)
I'm getting a 500 error when I visit the site.