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Re:Tell HN: A Conversation Needs to Be Had over Subscription... by toyg on Friday January 21, 2022 @06:55AM (#30022247)
Yeah, it's not really about free software; it's about paying salaries. Recurring expenses inevitably result in business models optimized for recurring revenues. That was always the case; it just so happened that the expansion of industrial production of goods was so vast for so long, that this was kinda hidden (and it was hard to justify - there are only so many widgets you can continuously supply to customers).

Now that the internet has removed any friction between business and customer, business is reaching its ideal state: one where the customer pays as long as the business has recurring expenses, where production never stops, and where productivity of labor approaches infinity.

Re:Tell HN: A Conversation Needs to Be Had over Subscription... by tjoff on Friday January 21, 2022 @07:10AM (#30022351)
Recurring expenses very often isn't necessary though.

For software the initial costs are big, but after that it can be pretty low maintenance or at least costing much less to develop new features when the foundation is set.

When you start to think about recurring expenses that's when you have to find a way to justify those expenses. And that is usually by adding bloat and unnecessary features that those that already bought it might not even want.

So now you have to pay for features that you don't want to keep using the features that you've already bought? Tough sell...

Re:Tell HN: A Conversation Needs to Be Had over Subscription... by toyg on Friday January 21, 2022 @08:21AM (#30023108)
Companies are not made of 100% engineers. Production costs are only part of recurring expenses in a business. At the very minimum you have to pay an executive team, a marketing team, a network/security team, a legal team, an accounting team... these guys don't work for free, and want to be paid every year at worst - more often, every month. Even if each "team" is one person in your garage, you have to pay them. And when you scale up, now you have investors to service, and they also would very much like to get regular dividends from their investment (or see constant growth in the value of their share).

Note: I'm not defending the practice (if you dig in my comment history, you'll see pretty incendiary stuff against SaaS abuse very recently), I'm just saying that it's what business naturally tends like - in the same way it naturally tends towards paying people as little as possible, exploiting them, etc etc. This is what the market becomes when left to its own devices. If we don't like it, we need to proactively intervene in law.

Re:Tell HN: A Conversation Needs to Be Had over Subscription... by jtbayly on Friday January 21, 2022 @08:11AM (#30022975)
For example, 1Password.

I’m happy to pay for a new version if my current version stops working. OS or browser update broke the app? I’ll pay for the new version.

But they are trying to force me to pay every month, therefore they remove my ability to use the app at all unless I pay for their cloud storage which I neither need nor want.

Re:Tell HN: A Conversation Needs to Be Had over Subscription... by gefhfffh on Friday January 21, 2022 @08:24AM (#30023134)
Well, they don't stop working on an improved app and new features while you don't want to update.

You don't only get compatibility with X with the new version but all that as well.

Re:Tell HN: A Conversation Needs to Be Had over Subscription... by ericd on Friday January 21, 2022 @09:11AM (#30023683)
If no one wants those improvements, why should they pay them to keep working on it? Maybe 1pass should start working on something else to sell, and move the old stuff to minimal maintenance.
Re:Tell HN: A Conversation Needs to Be Had over Subscription... by lotsofpulp on Friday January 21, 2022 @09:17AM (#30023763)
>If no one wants those improvements, why should they pay them to keep working on it?

They should not pay them, they should use one of the numerous alternatives.

Re:Tell HN: A Conversation Needs to Be Had over Subscription... by ericd on Friday January 21, 2022 @09:20AM (#30023803)
Yep, and in the case of 1pw, I use Bitwarden instead.
Re:Tell HN: A Conversation Needs to Be Had over Subscription... by jtbayly on Friday January 21, 2022 @01:12PM (#30027528)
Fine. They can work on the app and sell me on the benefits they’ve added.
Re:Tell HN: A Conversation Needs to Be Had over Subscription... by voisin on Friday January 21, 2022 @09:41AM (#30024072)
Honest question: Why use 1Password rather than a modern browser’s built in password management?

Side note: Daring Fireball has had some discussion recently about 1Password moving to enterprise for employee password management and adopting the SaaS model in order to make this transition, alienating current client base in the process. A ballsy move!

Re:Tell HN: A Conversation Needs to Be Had over Subscription... by eppsilon on Friday January 21, 2022 @11:32AM (#30025850)
Honest answer: I use more than one browser. If Apple Keychain autofill worked in 3rd-party browsers, it would almost cover my use cases though.
Re:Tell HN: A Conversation Needs to Be Had over Subscription... by jtbayly on Friday January 21, 2022 @01:11PM (#30027508)
Password sharing.
Re:Tell HN: A Conversation Needs to Be Had over Subscription... by aceazzameen on Friday January 21, 2022 @09:29AM (#30023918)
Password managers are an exception for me. I pay them so they can continually stay ahead with device/browser compatibility, security, and breaches.
Re:Tell HN: A Conversation Needs to Be Had over Subscription... by warrenm on Friday January 21, 2022 @09:48AM (#30024193)
>For software the initial costs are big, but after that it can be pretty low maintenance or at least costing much less to develop new features when the foundation is set.

Written by someone who - probably - doesn't understand how complex software is to write/update/expand/maintain

Re:Tell HN: A Conversation Needs to Be Had over Subscription... by tjoff on Friday January 21, 2022 @10:19AM (#30024662)
Oh I am. The whole point was that you might not need to write/update/expand as much as you think.

And the case have previously been that such development is largely paid for by new users.

Re:Tell HN: A Conversation Needs to Be Had over Subscription... by rodet on Friday January 21, 2022 @07:17AM (#30022391)
In the case of local software, I agree. But most users expect connected services nowadays, which mean recurring costs for the developers as well in many cases.
Re:Tell HN: A Conversation Needs to Be Had over Subscription... by jtbayly on Friday January 21, 2022 @08:13AM (#30022996)
What do you mean by “connected services”? If that’s just a code word for cloud storage, then no, thank you. I’ve got cloud storage, and I don’t need yours. You’re just trying to justify charging me every month.
Re:Tell HN: A Conversation Needs to Be Had over Subscription... by falcolas on Friday January 21, 2022 @09:34AM (#30023983)
Only if companies force their users onto “their cloud”. There are plenty of remote storage services; why can’t we use those?

The answer is that it makes it harder to justify perpetual revenue streams then.

Re:Tell HN: A Conversation Needs to Be Had over Subscription... by coldtea on Friday January 21, 2022 @07:21AM (#30022417)
>Yeah, it's not really about free software; it's about paying salaries

Well, that's on the software maker.

Why pay salaries in perpetuity for something made and sold once?

Re:Tell HN: A Conversation Needs to Be Had over Subscription... by toyg on Friday January 21, 2022 @08:17AM (#30023055)
Almost no software these days is "made and sold once" because of network support - even the most "local" apps will have stuff like saving settings or document to remote servers, talking to network peers, receiving updates when new OS versions are released, and so on. Anything sold on Apple platforms, for example, nowadays has to be updated at least once a year just to keep up.
Re:Tell HN: A Conversation Needs to Be Had over Subscription... by coldtea on Friday January 21, 2022 @08:57AM (#30023505)
A lot of the "network support" is unwanted BS nobody asked for, that could be sold separately (or be open to other providers to offer). Like the BS "Adobe Cloud" they give you when you subscribe to the CSuite.

>Anything sold on Apple platforms, for example, nowadays has to be updated at least once a year just to keep up.

Factually wrong.

Re:Tell HN: A Conversation Needs to Be Had over Subscription... by AlexandrB on Friday January 21, 2022 @10:25AM (#30024756)
Can confirm. I still use Sparrow for email on MacOS. Yes that Sparrow - the one bought by Google and discontinued a decade ago.

I think the need to update software constantly is sometimes a self fulfilling prophecy with SaaS. Features that need constant maintenance get added because: "Why not? We have a continuous income stream."

Edit:

Another example: I use Transmit on iOS. It hasn't been updated since 2017[1] because of lack of sales. Still works great on the latest iOS/iPhone.

[1] https://panic.com/blog/the-future-of-transmit-ios/

Re:Tell HN: A Conversation Needs to Be Had over Subscription... by monkey_monkey on Friday January 21, 2022 @08:35AM (#30023246)
> Anything sold on Apple platforms, for example, nowadays has to be updated at least once a year just to keep up.

Incorrect.

Re:Tell HN: A Conversation Needs to Be Had over Subscription... by ericd on Friday January 21, 2022 @09:13AM (#30023697)
Minimal maintenance doesn’t take the same size team as making new features.