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Re:The Windows 11 taskbar is an annoying step backward by kristopolous on Friday January 21, 2022 @01:07AM (#30019799)
I've always been suspicious of that attribution.

Pretend everything else about the iPhone happened; The charisma and leadership of Steve Jobs, the brilliant marketing, the countless number of talented software engineers, but instead the device basically looks like a blackberry.

Physical keyboard, plastic case, More or less a knock off aesthetically.

We're deep in counterfactual territory but I think it can be argued that this imagined iphone with a very conventional aesthetic would have done effectively just as well. It still connects to iTunes and hooks up to your Mac, having all the same technical features and functionality.

The point is people see something successful, then they assign one of the attributes as the driver of the success and there seems to be very little reflection of the two core questions: (1) is it true? (2) is it generalizable to other companies?

And let's say it is. Are you really going to make something that's more iPhoney than an iPhone? More macosy then macos?

So even conceding those two points, which I think are utterly contestable, It still doesn't make any sense. Maybe that's why it's never worked. Maybe. Who knows?

Re:The Windows 11 taskbar is an annoying step backward by CRConrad on Friday January 21, 2022 @04:30AM (#30021189)
>> When the iPhone became successful, before that it was all utility, then fashion took priority when the iPhone out sold literally everything.

> Pretend everything else about the iPhone happened; The charisma and leadership of Steve Jobs, the brilliant marketing, the countless number of talented software engineers, but instead the device basically looks like a blackberry.

> Physical keyboard, plastic case, More or less a knock off aesthetically.

> We're deep in counterfactual territory but I think it can be argued that this imagined iphone with a very conventional aesthetic would have done effectively just as well.

Yeah, but AFAICS that doesn't really contradict the hypothesis. Sure, I might agree with your counterfactual and also conclude that it wasn't really the design -- and, side note, I think what was originally meant here was the narrower sense of the ever-dumbed-down GUI, not physical characteristics like keyboard or not -- that led to the iPhone's breakout success... But just because you and I think so, CEOs didn't (necessarily) agree.

If they thought it was the cheery skeumorphic (and later stylised, then rounded-corner, then sharp-edge-rectangular, then rounded-corner again... yadda yadda) graphical design that led to the market success, then they started listening only to graphical designers, and that is what has elevated graphical designers to "gods" over actual developers.

And that's not just a counter-hypothesis to yours, but my theory; it's how I think it actually happened.

Re:The Windows 11 taskbar is an annoying step backward by zakius on Friday January 21, 2022 @03:04AM (#30020560)
the thing about iphone is: it didn't start the smartphone era like many say, it ended it suddenly people started desiring device as expensive as business models were that coul'd only do half of things their mainstream ones could so by market rules it wasn't profitable to struggle and do things right anymore, do you remember cheap Chinese portable music players that required dedicated software but we beared with it because they were cheap? so... iphone isn't cheap
Re:The Windows 11 taskbar is an annoying step backward by kristopolous on Friday January 21, 2022 @03:54AM (#30020918)
Apple, and a number of other players, have long had the ability to craft a favourable narrative in most people's minds.

Heck even supposedly technically minded people will say things like "Apple invented the mouse" or they had "the first mp3 player" or "the first smartphone".

There's a circus about them that permits them to stomp out history before their first performance and mark it as irrelevant.

Musk is also a master of this craft. Founder of Tesla? You'd be surprised. Founder of PayPal? Go look that up.

These people could have been excellent actors if their businesses had failed

Re:The Windows 11 taskbar is an annoying step backward by Someone on Friday January 21, 2022 @06:03AM (#30021927)
> There's a circus about them that permits them to stomp out history

And how do you think they would do that?

Apple sometimes uses a bit of hyperbole to describe itself (https://512pixels.net/2014/01/apple-boilerplate/), but I don’t think Apple ever claimed "Apple invented the mouse" or they had "the first mp3 player" or "the first smartphone".

I also have never met anybody who made such claims, only people saying there are people who make such claims.

It also would be weird for them to do so. Their marketing differentiates their products from the competition, and has been doing that for years.

The competition sells MP3 players, the iPod was a _music_player_ or just the iPod (look at https://youtube.com/watch?v=kN0SVBCJqLs, and count how often Steve says music before he says mp3. [1]); the iPhone an iPod with touch controls, a revolutionary mobile phone, and a breakthrough internet communications device (https://youtube.com/watch?v=x7qPAY9JqE4), the iPad just the iPad.

[1] There’s a claim in hat video that Apple invented FireWire. I think that is mostly correct. They were the driving force there.

Re:The Windows 11 taskbar is an annoying step backward by bigbizisverywyz on Friday January 21, 2022 @08:35AM (#30023241)
I'm similarly confused that anybody would even think Apple claim to have invented these things.

Particularly so since in the Keynotes where SJ introduced e.g. the iPod he shows the state of the competition and has a good critique before introducing his 'lame' replacement.

Re:The Windows 11 taskbar is an annoying step backward by CRConrad on Friday January 21, 2022 @04:34AM (#30021206)
Zuckerberg, founder of Facebook...
Re:The Windows 11 taskbar is an annoying step backward by CRConrad on Friday January 21, 2022 @04:33AM (#30021201)
Upvote for content -- but, if I could have simultaneously downvoted for near-unintelligibility of run-on sentece, I would have.
Re:The Windows 11 taskbar is an annoying step backward by zakius on Friday January 21, 2022 @04:39AM (#30021246)
in the text area it was separated into paragraphs but oh well, I guess it pretends to be markdown formatted?
Re:The Windows 11 taskbar is an annoying step backward by chongli on Friday January 21, 2022 @05:57AM (#30021874)
You need to put an extra newline to get separate paragraphs.

Like this.

Re:The Windows 11 taskbar is an annoying step backward by CRConrad on Friday January 21, 2022 @10:16AM (#30024592)
Periods would have helped. They're standard even at the ends of paragraphs.
Re:The Windows 11 taskbar is an annoying step backward by 8note on Friday January 21, 2022 @07:34PM (#30031820)
The iPhone being a flat glass screen and nothing else really was a big change.

It lets you have video and web browsing, and what actually lets apps be useful.

Before the iPhone, the UX was basically fixed and couldn't be iterated on, and the screen space was ~240p or 144 tops