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Re:Doctors call out Spotify for letting Joe Rogan spread ‘fa... by JaimeThompson on Saturday January 15, 2022 @10:00AM (#29946805)
I would love to see the evidence you used to reach those conclusions, care to share it?
Re:Doctors call out Spotify for letting Joe Rogan spread ‘fa... by bsaul on Saturday January 15, 2022 @10:10AM (#29946878)
I see everywhere epidemiologist and doctors calling for « humility » with covid, since it has shown to be « full of surprises ». Which, to me, looks like another way of saying they got wrong numerous times in the past on how to manage the epidemic.

The fact is, we’ve never had (at least in europe) that many vaccinated people, that many sanitary measures (except for full lockdowns at the very beginning), and yet that many number of cases, as well as that many number of people in hospitals (from delta, since omikron looks much weaker, thanks to nature).

In that context, trying to blame JR for trying to give speech to other medical experts, and have a different opinion on that topic, is really unfair. This should actually be the stance most scientists should take : what did we do wrong, what did we miss, was there something we could have done differently ?

Re:Doctors call out Spotify for letting Joe Rogan spread ‘fa... by breitling on Saturday January 15, 2022 @10:07AM (#29946857)
I could see what they are trying to say because I hear the same thing all around me.

I'm in Ontario, Canada. There are regions with 90% vaccinations rate (Toronto) and still the hospitals are full and we are in lockdown. As laymen, people do question whether anyone knows what they're doing.

Toronto has been one of the most compliant cities for masking, social distancing, and vaccines. Even then we are not spared.

Re:Doctors call out Spotify for letting Joe Rogan spread ‘fa... by jacquesm on Saturday January 15, 2022 @10:35AM (#29947112)
What should give you pause: imagine what it could have been like without all those measures. Because they do work, and if in spite of that you have a pretty bad disaster on your hand that translates into being spared from a much worse one.
Re:Doctors call out Spotify for letting Joe Rogan spread ‘fa... by amanaplanacanal on Saturday January 15, 2022 @10:17AM (#29946944)
It appears that the techniques everybody was using to slow the spread of the original virus aren’t working as well for omicron. That doesn’t mean they weren’t a good idea for the original strain.
Re:Doctors call out Spotify for letting Joe Rogan spread ‘fa... by namdnay on Saturday January 15, 2022 @09:58AM (#29946787)
No we don’t
Re:Doctors call out Spotify for letting Joe Rogan spread ‘fa... by croes on Saturday January 15, 2022 @10:04AM (#29946833)
Because the infection numbers rose, too.

Last year germany had half the infections but twice the deaths, so the vaccines are obviously working.

Re:Doctors call out Spotify for letting Joe Rogan spread ‘fa... by bsaul on Saturday January 15, 2022 @10:22AM (#29946988)
We didn’t track infections as well in march 2020. We basically have 0 data for that period other than hospitalization.
Re:Doctors call out Spotify for letting Joe Rogan spread ‘fa... by bitxbitxbitcoin on Saturday January 15, 2022 @10:45AM (#29947212)
Last year was 2021.
Re:Doctors call out Spotify for letting Joe Rogan spread ‘fa... by javagram on Saturday January 15, 2022 @10:06AM (#29946852)
Death numbers in the vaccinated are quite low.

How can you blame “vaccine passports, triple jabs” for rising deaths among the unvaccinated?

Re:Doctors call out Spotify for letting Joe Rogan spread ‘fa... by bsaul on Saturday January 15, 2022 @10:21AM (#29946973)
Vaccines are 100% about trust, since you’re supposed to take them when you’re still healthy.

Could the governments have done more to unsure vulnerable people got it, while at the same time not bypass every core rules western democracies stand on ?

Here’s a few tips : 1- make the EU contracts with pfizer and moderna public (i can’t believe they thought this was a good idea)

2- don’t pretend vaccines are 100% safe, report about side effects, and communicate about ongoing investigations around them. Saying « everything’s fine » when you can easily find online testimonies of people having horrible side effects, is NOT the good approach.

3- admit that there are still unknown unknowns about mRNA vaccines, as there is with every piece of new tech. We still have 0 statistics about >2 years side effects. By definition.

This is an adult way of communicating. It doesn’t rely on fear but rather providing the maximum amount of quality information, so that everyone can make its own decision about their own health.

Re:Doctors call out Spotify for letting Joe Rogan spread ‘fa... by javagram on Sunday January 16, 2022 @07:05PM (#29961821)
> 2- don’t pretend vaccines are 100% safe, report about side effects, and communicate about ongoing investigations around them. Saying « everything’s fine » when you can easily find online testimonies of people having horrible side effects, is NOT the good approach.

This was and is being done. Anti vaxxers are aware and are making plentiful use of the open data sharing being done by governments and researchers on vaccine risks.

For instance, the J&J vaccine rollout was paused in the USA due to an extremely rare side effect - costing lives in the vain hope of making people feel that the government was being cautious and safety-focused. In other countries such as Australia, government scientific committees delayed the rollout of vaccines such as AstraZeneca to certain populations out of fear of side effects as well. Governments have published statistics and discussed the myocarditis and pericarditis risk from mRNA vaccines.

Unfortunately in the age of the internet, people aren’t actually reading hundred page papers and getting degrees in statistics to evaluate published risks of myocarditis or blood clots - hearing their favorite podcaster bring in a guest who warns the vaccine is more dangerous than the virus is enough to convince an antivaxxer to stay in danger.

> We still have 0 statistics about >2 years side effects. By definition.

It’s equally true that we have zero statistics about the side effects of the virus after two years… what is known is that vaccine side effects typically occur within 60 days of administration. Just like we have no data the Sun will rise next morning , but we assume the laws of physics keep working because they always have worked that way.

Re:Doctors call out Spotify for letting Joe Rogan spread ‘fa... by tzs on Saturday January 15, 2022 @06:44PM (#29951657)
> 2- don’t pretend vaccines are 100% safe, report about side effects, and communicate about ongoing investigations around them. Saying « everything’s fine » when you can easily find online testimonies of people having horrible side effects, is NOT the good approach.

This was done. I've got an Apple News+ subscription which lets me read several mainstream newspapers and they all had extensive coverage of side effects, and followed the investigations on them.

Re:Doctors call out Spotify for letting Joe Rogan spread ‘fa... by fortytwo79 on Saturday January 15, 2022 @10:21AM (#29946980)
I don't think that comment was implying those measures are to blame for rising deaths. I think it was to argue that they haven't had the impact they were expected to have.
Re:Doctors call out Spotify for letting Joe Rogan spread ‘fa... by toss1 on Saturday January 15, 2022 @10:13AM (#29946895)
Utter counterfactual nonsense

Measures work, WHEN ACTUALLY IMPLEMENTED

When 30%+ of the population is actively working to undermine measures that require high levels of compliance to work -duh- they don't work as well.

Moreover, the new variant is literally the 2nd most contagious disease out there, with a R0 of about 12 vs about 3 for the original variant, second only to measles. Of course numbers will become similar even with some of the population vaccinated.

Just do the math.

Two shots mRNA vaccine is about 25% effective at preventing cases, 3 shots about 75%, and both are around 90% effective at preventing hospitalization, and 98% effective at preventing death.

About 65% of the US population is 2-shots vacinated and 20% 3-shot vaccinated. The majority of the cases is in the minority of the unvaxed population, and 90% of the hospitalization and deaths are.

So, you are literally complaining about the exact opposite of what you state.

What is failing is not the measures, but the lack of measures.

What is disappointing is that bad takes like this have prevented leaders from actually taking any serious steps this wave.

Re:Doctors call out Spotify for letting Joe Rogan spread ‘fa... by peteradio on Saturday January 15, 2022 @09:36PM (#29952730)
Yet colleges are mandating boosters for students. For what, couldn't be the 25% vs 75% case reduction because that is piss to the wind if you think you will avoid getting it. The mad overreach is what is causing this backlash.
Re:Doctors call out Spotify for letting Joe Rogan spread ‘fa... by superkuh on Saturday January 15, 2022 @10:23AM (#29946995)
You're right, he is wrong. But you're also wrong. Intramuscular vaccination only will never prevent sars-cov-2 infection or spread. Just like it doesn't with influenza a. It isn't just about people not getting vaccinated. The problem is that we're not following up the intramuscular vaccination with an intranasal vaccination booster.

Intramuscular vaccination for upper respiratory aerosol viral diseases does protect your internal body from serious disease. It does that partially with antibody neutralization (via B cells) and with variants, mostly with cross reactive T cells which kill any of your infected cells.

But those B and T cells are in the body serum immune compartment. The serum igG antibodies generated by intramuscular vaccination do seep into your lower lungs a bit and provide protection. But they barely get into the upper respiratory surface tissues (mucosa) and for less than a couple months even at those low levels. And none of the T cells (or B cells making antibodies) become resident in the upper respiratory tissues where infection happens.

This means the upper respiratory mucosa immune compartment can and is still infected and spreads sars-cov-2. Even if sars-cov-2 has 70x less chance of killing you now. It means that tests for infection in the nose/throat/etc will return positive. And it means the intramuscularly vaccinated can and do spread sars-cov-2 and have to wear N95/ffp2 masks like everyone.

The intramuscular vaccination is only the FIRST STEP. The second is intranasal vaccination so that there are tissue resident B and T cells in the upper respiratory mucosa to prevent infection and spread.

It's incredibly frustrating to me (and probably others in the know) that no institutions or governments have acted on this well known historical fact (been known since the 1960s). If we go based off the time it took governments to realize everyone needs to be wearing a proper fit mask with no gaps then they should realize the value of intranasal vaccines about 2 years from now.

Re:Doctors call out Spotify for letting Joe Rogan spread ‘fa... by toss1 on Saturday January 15, 2022 @02:21PM (#29949310)
YES. I fully agree that the measures are insufficient AND that addition of intranasal vaccines to those measures would be even better.

The greater measures we should be taking was out of scope; I was merely trying to show that the other complaint saying 'why bother with measures when they don't work' is entirely in the wrong direction -- the fact that this vastly more infectious variant is producing wave similar in scope to the original and Delta waves shows that the measures ARE working -- without them, this more infectious strain would be far worse.

Re:Doctors call out Spotify for letting Joe Rogan spread ‘fa... by bingohbangoh on Saturday January 15, 2022 @10:48AM (#29947233)
If you're plan relies on 100% compliance, it's bound to fail.

The second and third worlds have far lower vaccination rates. The new omicron variant did not come from the US but from South Africa. We cannot control how well they choose to vaccinate. We can scarcely control it here.