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Re:Quantum particles feel the influence of gravitational fie... by changoplatanero on Friday January 14, 2022 @10:18AM (#29935465)
I'm not sure how it's possible to "never touch" a gravitational field given that they extend throughout the universe and are impossible to be shielded.
Re:Quantum particles feel the influence of gravitational fie... by pdonis on Friday January 14, 2022 @11:35AM (#29936635)
As is unfortunately common in pop science writeups, the article gives a garbled description of what the Aharonov-Bohm effect actually is. The key point is not that "the field never touches the particles". The key point is that the potential, rather than the field, has an observable effect. In classical gauge theories, the potential itself is not considered to be observable; only the field (the gradient of the potential) is. However, in QM, the potential itself can have observable effects. That's what's going on here, but with the gravitational potential instead of the EM potential (as in the ordinary Aharonov-Bohm effect).

The paper itself is here:

https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.abl7152

It's paywalled and unfortunately I have not been able to find a preprint on arxiv.org.

Re:Quantum particles feel the influence of gravitational fie... by hilbert42 on Friday January 14, 2022 @09:53PM (#29943100)
"The key point is that the potential, rather than the field, has an observable effect. In classical gauge theories, the potential itself is not considered to be observable; only the field (the gradient of the potential) is. However, in QM, the potential itself can have observable effects."

That comment is short, succinct and understandable, it's the best summary of the physics involved that I've heard in so few words.

It seems to me that we don't put sufficient emphasis into considering potentials. Viewing things from the aspect of potentials I reckon changes one's perspective, and I think the Aharonov-Bohm effect is a case in point, without doing so we easily come aground.

However, the Aharonov-Bohm effect still perplexes me more than I'd like - in QM, why exactly does potential have observable effects? Why is it that a phase shift occurs in the wave function of a charged particle in the near vicinity of a solenoid even though both magnetic and electric fields are negligible? (I'm either not convinced by explanations that I've heard to date or thst I don't fully understand them.)

Whilst my understanding of the Aharonov-Bohm effect is deficient in this regard, it nevertheless seems to me that if the effect can also be detected in a gravitational field context then we've likely found a profound and deeply relevant connection between EM fields/relatively and gravity. If verified, then we'd have to consider it a breakthrough in our understanding of what up until now has been an intractable problem.

The key point is that we've now experimental evidence for such a connection and that's really good news.

Re:Quantum particles feel the influence of gravitational fie... by pdonis on Saturday January 15, 2022 @02:34AM (#29944484)
> if the effect can also be detected in a gravitational field context then we've likely found a profound and deeply relevant connection between EM fields/relatively and gravity.

I'm not sure I'd say it's a breakthrough since theorists have expected it all along. And current treatments of this all have a key limitation, that they are using non-relativistic QM. Which in practice works fine since all the experiments we can currently do in this area are well within the non-relativistic domain.

A real breakthrough would be a relativistic quantum theory that included gravity as well as the other interactions. But that's probably still some way off.

Re:Quantum particles feel the influence of gravitational fie... by hilbert42 on Saturday January 15, 2022 @05:13AM (#29945258)
"real breakthrough would be a relativistic quantum theory that included gravity..."

Yeah, sometimes one has to be optimistic. I'm aware of the limitations of using non-relativistic QM but it seemed to me that this experimental connection, if confirmed, would encourage or even force relativistic work to center stage.

Essentially, both theoretical and experimental practitioners could now say 'we've now a concrete stating point'. On reflection, I wouldn't expect a full GR explanation to come easy. Still, it's a start.

Re:Quantum particles feel the influence of gravitational fie... by pdonis on Saturday January 15, 2022 @02:32AM (#29944473)
> in QM, why exactly does potential have observable effects?

The simple answer is that it's right there in the Hamiltonian, and the Hamiltonian is the central operator in QM, the one that determines time evolution. The fact that the EM potential appears there has been known almost as long as QM itself. Much of the recent QM experimentation in gravitational fields has been making use of recent technological advances to verify, what theorists have expected all along, that the gravitational potential acts just like the EM potential in the Hamiltonian.

Re:Quantum particles feel the influence of gravitational fie... by hilbert42 on Saturday January 15, 2022 @09:34AM (#29946629)
I suppose I fell foul of AE's warning about oversimplification but it's sometimes difficult to avoid in HN posts. Also, I am not a professional physicist which means I don't have the depths of understanding at the edges of the subject that I wish I had, this essentially limits my comments to the accepted orthodox understanding of the subject.

It's a while since I last looked at Aharonov and Bohm's '59 paper but if I recall your point about the Hamiltonian is covered there. My understanding is that in this paper the key difference from the earlier work to which you also refer is that their new solution to the Hamiltonian now involves a phase factor.

The point I should have made was that I wasn't thinking so much about the mathematical explanation of the Aharonov-Bohm effect but in more general terms where perhaps this new experimental work may reinvigorate interest in the subject and in related areas.

Whilst QFT provides us with an exquisitely accurate mathematical account for the purposes of calculation, it says little about the underlying physics per se. Thus, it seems to me that we stil have a limited understanding about the nature of say virtual particles, ZPE, etc. and essentially no understanding of why the electric, magnetic and fine structure constants and others are the values they are.

Research into the Aharonov-Bohm effect, could eventually lead to a deeper more fundamental understanding of the subject although, given past history, I fully accept that coming up with a major breakthrough in the near future is probably unlikely. (It's even more unlikely that we'll resolve the constants problem anytime soon, if at all.)

It seems to me that the most significant aspect of this work is that we now have more than just a theoretical framework that connects EM and gravity/the gravitational field at a QM level (or seemgly so). Tenuous it may be but it seems like a good start.

For my part, I still worry about why, say, the electric and magnetic constants have the value they do or why our understanding of ZPE is seemingly at odds with reality given the ludicrous value of the calculated zero-point radiation of the vacuum. But then, this is more about philosophy than it is about physics.

Re:Quantum particles feel the influence of gravitational fie... by mikewarot on Friday January 14, 2022 @02:44PM (#29939343)
You're right, most descriptions of Aharonov-Bohm fail to mention Electromagnetic Potential, and just describe it as quantum woo. I'd love to have an actual quantum detector, like a SQUID, to do some physics experiments with.
Re:Quantum particles feel the influence of gravitational fie... by hilbert42 on Saturday January 15, 2022 @10:09AM (#29946872)
You'll recall that Feynman whinged about the lack of potentials when he was trained (there bring too much emphasis on fields and almost nothing on potentials). And I reckon he was right to do so for the same reasons, as it took me a considerable amount of time to shift my thinking around to thinking potentials and not fields.

Re SQUIDs, likewise, I could amuse myself for ages if I had several to play with.

Re:Quantum particles feel the influence of gravitational fie... by Koshkin on Friday January 14, 2022 @02:11PM (#29938875)
> description

Importantly, it's "famed" and "eerie."

Re:Quantum particles feel the influence of gravitational fie... by criddell on Friday January 14, 2022 @10:39AM (#29935776)
They touch on that in the article:

> Notably, the particles weren’t in a gravitational field–free zone. Instead, the experiment was designed so that the researchers could filter out the effects of gravitational forces, laying bare the eerie Aharonov-Bohm influence.

I'm no physicist, but I think they calculated the expected influence and compared that with a measurement.

Re:Quantum particles feel the influence of gravitational fie... by pdonis on Friday January 14, 2022 @11:36AM (#29936659)
The "filter out the effects of gravitational forces" means that the measured particles were in free fall; in free fall there is no gravitational force.
Re:Quantum particles feel the influence of gravitational fie... by kenjackson on Friday January 14, 2022 @12:22PM (#29937224)
Is that the common way you'd express that they were measured in free fall -- that the effects were "filtered" out? That seems like an odd way of saying it, but I'm not a physicist.
Re:Quantum particles feel the influence of gravitational fie... by pdonis on Friday January 14, 2022 @01:07PM (#29937868)
I don't think it's a very good way of expressing that the objects were in free fall, no. Nor, as far as I can tell, does the actual paper (as opposed to the pop science article) use such an expression.
Re:Quantum particles feel the influence of gravitational fie... by Arwill on Friday January 14, 2022 @11:32AM (#29936583)
They measured a bigger gravitational effect on the particle, because the superpositional pair of the particle flew closer to a mass than the actually measured particle.

Regarding the "never touch", gravity decreases with distance squared, so it diminishes quickly with distance. There is a big difference in being near the mass, as opposed to feeling the dimished effect of it from far.

Re:Quantum particles feel the influence of gravitational fie... by pdonis on Friday January 14, 2022 @11:38AM (#29936691)
> They measured a bigger gravitational effect on the particle

No, they didn't. They measured a phase shift in the particle's wave function. There is no "gravitational force" in free fall, and the particles were in free fall.

> gravity decreases with distance squared

The Newtonian gravitational force does, but the Newtonian gravitational force is irrelevant for an experiment conducted in free fall, as this one was. The gravitational potential is the key thing being measured, and it's not the potential due to the Earth, it's the potential due to a 1-kg "source mass".

> There is a big difference in being near the mass, as opposed to feeling the dimished effect of it from far.

The particles were near the 1-kg source mass.

Re:Quantum particles feel the influence of gravitational fie... by hilbert42 on Saturday January 15, 2022 @11:15AM (#29947517)
"The gravitational potential is the key thing being measured, and it's not the potential due to the Earth, it's the potential due to a 1-kg "source mass"."

Right, it seems that for many the 'potential' worldview is hard to grasp (it was for me too until it drawned on me that it's important).

I blame this on poor training and poor textbooks, they don't emphasize the importance of potentials. Also, we seem to grow up with a 'fields' perspective, electric fields and so on.

Maxwell was on the 'right' path with his original formulation of his equations where potentials were involved. However, when Heaviside reformulated them to the 'vector' view we quickly lost the 'potential' one.

No doubt, Heaviside's formulation is incredibly useful in electrical engineering and eleconics and as you'd know that's how they usually appear in textbooks. Trouble is, outside advanced physics texts the 'potential' view is usually omitted. Educators really need to fix this.

Another problem is that the description of a potential is not up to scratch. All too often we seem to be stuck with highschool physics descriptions - those that involve pith balls. The concept that we never measure absolute energy, but only differences often gets lost when describing potentials.

You'd reckon that after Feynman's well documented whingeing about the fact he wasn't taught about potentials early enough that you'd think by now educators would have had sufficient time to have rewritten their notes but apparently they've not.

Re:Quantum particles feel the influence of gravitational fie... by Arwill on Friday January 14, 2022 @11:58AM (#29936926)
>Each of those two sets of atoms were split into superpositions, with one path traveling closer to the mass than the other, separated by about 25 centimeters

One path of the particle in superposition was closer to the 1.25Kg mass than the other path, and they did measure a difference when doing that.

I don't know if you are trying to be pedantic, or just want to contradict. I know what you are saying, but the the expression "not touching the field" makes perfect sense to me. Try plotting the 25cm distance difference for the 1.25Kg mass, and see if it makes a difference or not...

Re:Quantum particles feel the influence of gravitational fie... by pdonis on Friday January 14, 2022 @12:18PM (#29937170)
> they did measure a difference

They measured a phase shift in the wave function, as I said. They did not measure any direct difference in "gravitational effect" on the particles, as for example a difference in bending of their trajectories due to the source mass would be.

> the expression "not touching the field" makes perfect sense to me

The problem with it, as several commenters have pointed out, is that you can't shield anything from gravity. The "not touching the field" comes from electromagnetism, where you can shield things from the field. So the "not touching the field" interpretation, while it works for EM, does not work for gravity.

Re:Quantum particles feel the influence of gravitational fie... by martopix on Friday January 14, 2022 @12:21PM (#29937216)
> There is no "gravitational force" in free fall, and the particles were in free fall.

what is free fall in a reference frame is a particle subject to a force in another reference frame.

Re:Quantum particles feel the influence of gravitational fie... by pdonis on Friday January 14, 2022 @01:07PM (#29937857)
No, it isn't. Free fall is invariant: attach an accelerometer to the object and it reads zero. That is true regardless of your choice of reference frame.
Re:Quantum particles feel the influence of gravitational fie... by PicassoCTs on Friday January 14, 2022 @11:18AM (#29936340)
One, in theory could shield of them, by having the same field apply from the opposing direction and distance. So if one could create such a "mirror" copy of all attractors - one would have a L1 Lagrange point. The forces still interact, but chancel each other out.
Re:Quantum particles feel the influence of gravitational fie... by pdonis on Friday January 14, 2022 @11:39AM (#29936699)
While this is of course possible in theory, it's not at all what was being done in this experiment.
Re:Quantum particles feel the influence of gravitational fie... by wongarsu on Friday January 14, 2022 @11:52AM (#29936873)
Changes in the gravitational field are only propagated at the speed of light, so in principle you could say something "never touched" a gravitational field if it just hasn't been reached by it yet.