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Re:Bound to Fail: The Rise and Fall of the Liberal Internati... by JumpCrisscross on Friday January 07, 2022 @09:26AM (#29839439)
> idea that the US republic is the ideal institution

This is a straw man. Nobody, including the Founding Fathers, claimed the original Republic was ideal. The Constitution's vagueness and incompleteness were widely admitted at its signing.

Pure democracies don't work. They devolve into populist, majoritarian nightmares that tear themselves apart. This has been a consistent failure mode across over three millennia. We have minority-protecting, stabilizing features built into our system that have been systematically dismantled and attacked over the past decades, all in the name of more democracy. That more democracy isn't always a good thing has been absent from the discussion, in part due to Cold War and ensuing dynamics, in part due to ad hominem rejections like the one you made.

Re:Bound to Fail: The Rise and Fall of the Liberal Internati... by smallerfish on Friday January 07, 2022 @10:25AM (#29840180)
My counter to that is that the common act of holding the framers (and constitution) in reverence, which you did in the comment upthread, stultifies the ability of the country to react to changing mores and needs. There's a lot of absurdity in US law and politics that simply doesn't exist in countries with more modern and/or fluid constitutions.

Suppose that the US were to create a constitution today, based on today's needs and the anticipated needs of the next 50 years. How different do you think it would look from what was written in the 18th century? (Put aside the impossibility of doing this in today's political climate, as that's not the point of the question.)

Re:Bound to Fail: The Rise and Fall of the Liberal Internati... by JumpCrisscross on Friday January 07, 2022 @10:42AM (#29840398)
I've gone back and forth on this. On one hand, the reverence is stifling and often mis-used. But it's also stabilizing. The fact that we've forgotten the balanced nature of our republic, and that the easiest way to remind us of that fact--which still holds merit today--is by appealing to the authority of the Founding Fathers, would be my Exhibit A to this argument.
Re:Bound to Fail: The Rise and Fall of the Liberal Internati... by piva00 on Friday January 07, 2022 @12:37PM (#29842042)
How is that stabilising though?

It starts to sound demi-religious. You shall not disobey the word of a larger power/figure.

And then society starts to rift over time, through the interpretation by different sects about what the words meant.

Over centuries you get a pretty twisted view of the original values, interpreted by a few different sects, and an ever growing wedge between those interpretations that gets harder and harder to reconcile.

Just like most major religions.

Re:Bound to Fail: The Rise and Fall of the Liberal Internati... by huetius on Friday January 07, 2022 @10:50AM (#29840503)
They kind of did think they were building the ideal government, though. One of the major, under-emphasized influences on the framers (especially Jefferson) was Destutt de Tracey, who developed the term “ideology.” For Destutt de Tracey, ideology meant the formal study of ideas as scientific objects. Large parts of his writings deal with determining the scientifically optimal form of government (cf. Marx). In his correspondences with Jefferson, you can read how much the new government took from Destutt de Tracey, both in form and outlook, to the point that Jefferson felt compelled to explain deviations from the Count’s prescriptions.