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Re:Copyright doesn't need 95 years to get the job done by tptacek on Monday January 03, 2022 @06:43PM (#29788720)
Outside of your innate right to split someone's skull open with the nearest tree branch and take the freshly killed squirrel out of their dead hands, pretty much all rights are legal fictions. You have to do better in your argument than to point out that the balancing acts we do in our laws are artificial.

What we're discussing here is a right that's been baked into American law since its creation; it's not a random idea Sonny Bono had in 1997.

Re:Copyright doesn't need 95 years to get the job done by Retric on Monday January 03, 2022 @06:53PM (#29788837)
No, people can actually protect themselves from theft by securing their property. You however can’t protect a book after selling it to someone else, that’s the legal fiction.

Also, IP law is relatively recent in American law which originates from England and France. Originally copyright only protected works from authors inside the country was only extended to foreign works in 1891 making it roughly half the age of the US.

Re:Copyright doesn't need 95 years to get the job done by kcb on Tuesday January 04, 2022 @12:49AM (#29791844)
If you copy my book I'm going to break your kneecaps. How is that any different from securing your property presumably through violence?
Re:Copyright doesn't need 95 years to get the job done by Retric on Tuesday January 04, 2022 @05:23AM (#29793297)
For one how can you detect it? You just sold me the book, what are you keeping goons in the house of everyone that bought a copy?
Re:Copyright doesn't need 95 years to get the job done by tptacek on Monday January 03, 2022 @06:55PM (#29788874)
IPR is literally in the main text of the US Constitution.
Re:Copyright doesn't need 95 years to get the job done by danShumway on Monday January 03, 2022 @09:23PM (#29790434)
A lot of things are the main text of the US Constitution that are not inherent individual rights: the entire text about how representatives are allotted between States for example.

To say that in the natural world people don't always have their rights guaranteed does not mean that Senator age requirements are in the same category of Right as a Right to a fair trial. One of those is a moral right and one of them is an administrative policy.

The age of copyright in the relation to the US is kind of weird debate to have, because in general we would want to look considerably earlier than the formation of the US to talk about moral rights, or at least we would want to look at arguments outside of the Constitution to try and figure out whether Copyright is a moral right or a pragmatic policy.

----

All we really get from the Constitution is:

> To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;

Which just leads to more endless debate over what "To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts" actually means, and whether a government right to regulate something is the same as an individual right/entitlement to a specific regulatory outcome (usually we don't treat those two things as the same). And we can go down that rabbit hole of what the founders intended, but in some ways that debate almost doesn't even matter when we get into what people are morally entitled to, because if the argument is that copyright is a natural property right that people are morally entitled to, that argument shouldn't boil down to "Jefferson thought so."

Looking at what the founders intended really only matters if copyright isn't a moral right, it matters if it's a policy designed to produce an outcome because then we can look at intent and see if the policy is producing the desired outcome. If people want to argue that they're morally entitled to a monopoly on pieces of culture, then they need a much stronger argument for that position.

Re:Copyright doesn't need 95 years to get the job done by tptacek on Monday January 03, 2022 @09:33PM (#29790533)
Nah. The problem people have with copyright is the monopoly it gives the creator. That objectionable term is right there in the language of the copyright clause. There's no abstraction to flee to here. You can't reasonably argue that it's "new to American law".
Re:Copyright doesn't need 95 years to get the job done by danShumway on Monday January 03, 2022 @09:45PM (#29790632)
> There's no abstraction to flee to here. You can't reasonably argue that it's "new to American law".

What does that mean though? If you want to claim that copyright is a moral right, saying that it was invented early on in American history isn't a good enough argument to justify that. Lots of things were invented early on in American history that are not moral rights, they're just useful policies.

The US Constitution includes language like:

> [Senators and Representatives] shall in all Cases, except Treason, Felony and Breach of the Peace, be privileged from Arrest during their Attendance at the Session of their respective Houses, and in going to and returning from the same; and for any Speech or Debate in either House, they shall not be questioned in any other Place.

No one would seriously claim that this means the Constitution is arguing that people have an inherent right not to be prosecuted while they're at a government job. It's a practical policy we put in place for practical reasons that should be examined through that lens.

And copyright is the same. The fact that the US Government reserves for itself the right to regulate commerce/sharing around ideas/inventions does not confer any moral right to any individual to have a monopoly over ideas. It merely gives Congress the right to establish that monopoly as it sees fit.

Re:Copyright doesn't need 95 years to get the job done by tptacek on Monday January 03, 2022 @09:59PM (#29790745)
I claimed that it's not new to American Law, citing the text of the US Constitution as evidence. I kind of don't know what it is that you're trying to argue; I think it doesn't have anything to do with what I'm saying.
Re:Copyright doesn't need 95 years to get the job done by Retric on Monday January 03, 2022 @10:34PM (#29790992)
To be clear the ability to have copyright was enabled by the constitution, but the constitution didn’t directly create any such laws.
Re:Copyright doesn't need 95 years to get the job done by Retric on Monday January 03, 2022 @06:58PM (#29788901)
Which dates back to 11 years after the founding of the US, but hundreds of years after the settlement of the the US.

And as I just said it only recognized works created in the US and therefore didn’t represent any recognition of copyright as some universal fact. It was a relatively ad hock compromise extending some at the time recent developments in English law.

Re:Copyright doesn't need 95 years to get the job done by Clubber on Monday January 03, 2022 @06:50PM (#29788808)
It was originally 14 years, renewable for an additional 14 year term if the author was alive.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_copyright_law_of_th...

Re:Copyright doesn't need 95 years to get the job done by tptacek on Monday January 03, 2022 @06:51PM (#29788825)
It was almost 60 years as of 1909, 14 years before Disney existed. But if you believe the right itself is a fiction, I'm not sure what the term has to do with anything.
Re:Copyright doesn't need 95 years to get the job done by pseudalopex on Monday January 03, 2022 @09:17PM (#29790373)
How is 1909 relevant to the origin of copyright?

The article explained how limited copyright is a useful incentive apart from any moral view. And it explained how the term affects the costs.