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Re:Harvard won’t require SAT or ACT through 2026 as test-opt... by rayiner on Friday December 17, 2021 @07:30PM (#29600100)
This is pissing on people's leg and telling them its raining. There's no "cultural loading" in the SATs. English is my second language and I didn't even know Chicago was a big city until my mid-20s, but reading a lot and practicing vocabulary words is easy and cheap. New York's Stuyvesant high school has an average SAT score of around 1500, and half of students are eligible for free/reduced price lunch: https://www.nydailynews.com/opinion/stuyvesant-serves-needy-...

Poverty makes things harder, no doubt. But American parenting is just bad and American students don't try very hard. My wife comes from a lower-income white family (multi-generational lack of economic mobility) and the lack of emphasis on eduction or discipline at home is glaring. Some people, like my wife, are just naturally very self-driven and make it out. But a lot of potential gets wasted because kids are allowed to just faff around instead of being rigidly guided by parents (or, as is more commonly the case, by the one parent).

Re:Harvard won’t require SAT or ACT through 2026 as test-opt... by Kranar on Friday December 17, 2021 @08:18PM (#29600472)
So then what do you make of the studies that show that SATs are culturally biased, like the one OP posted [1]. I decided to go ahead and buy it for the 10 bucks and review it. It's a surprisingly technical study that seems fairly robust and it has been replicated several times (original study in 2003 and replicated in 2010).

The findings are that much of the disparity between minorities and whites goes away for harder analogies that are more technical or scientific in nature, in fact contrary to what I expected, the recommendation of the study is to simply eliminate the bottom third of verbal questions (ranked by difficulty) involving analogies or sentence completion, as those are the questions that are most likely to involve cultural bias.

If my understanding is correct (and I'm sure I have some subtle details wrong), the idea is to let students take the SAT, then go over the verbal/analogy/sentence completion portion of the SAT and order each question by the proportion of white students who answered it correctly, and then eliminate the easiest of those questions from the final score. The most difficult questions are still part of the test, but apparently most of the cultural bias is among the easiest questions to answer that minorities get tripped up on.

If your hypothesis were true, that it's mostly a matter of bad parenting, it's kind of hard to see why bad parenting would make minorities struggle to answer the easiest questions for white people, but not also struggle to answer the hardest questions as well.

[1] https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2010/06/21/new-evidence-...

Re:Harvard won’t require SAT or ACT through 2026 as test-opt... by xyzzyz on Saturday December 18, 2021 @12:26AM (#29601927)
The racial gap is almost exactly as big on the SAT Math as it is on Verbal. Do you think SAT Math is also culturally biased? If so, do you think it is exactly as biased as Verbal? That is, why is the Math gap not, say, half the Verbal one, if the cause for disparities is cultural bias?
Re:Harvard won’t require SAT or ACT through 2026 as test-opt... by rayiner on Saturday December 18, 2021 @12:20AM (#29601906)
Why would there be a Black-white gap (two groups that come from the same American culture) but not an Asian-white gap (two groups that come from different cultures)?
Re:Harvard won’t require SAT or ACT through 2026 as test-opt... by tptacek on Saturday December 18, 2021 @01:21AM (#29602204)
Black and white families are not in fact part of the "same American culture". And, of course, it's not the case that Asians uniformly outperform white subjects on the SAT; "Asian" comprises many different cultures, and not all of them are empirically advantaged in America.
Re:Harvard won’t require SAT or ACT through 2026 as test-opt... by hooande on Saturday December 18, 2021 @03:30AM (#29602864)
> "Poverty makes things harder, no doubt."

This is all you needed to say.

The problem is that the system is designed to identify the most effective parents, not the most talented children. If you look at college admission as a function of personal merit, then it's unfair to judge a child based on their parents' ability to raise them. If you look at it as a system to identify those who will benefit society most by being educated, then you're going to get a lot of false positives that have parents from higher socio-economic classes.

Providing a test that produces an empirical result is just making it very easy for parents to game the system. It's a single, stationary target that they can fire money at. If you take away the test you're still selecting for the best parenting (all of life is). But it lets universities put more emphasis on grades and personal stories, areas where students whose parents have never heard of the SAT can still excel.

If you can use money to game the test then it's culturally loaded toward people who have enough money to game the test. A broader admissions criteria doesn't have this specific flaw

Re:Harvard won’t require SAT or ACT through 2026 as test-opt... by rayiner on Saturday December 18, 2021 @11:07AM (#29605520)
There is no such thing as “personal merit” independent of parenting. Kids are a product of their genetics and upbringing.

And you’re missing the point re: income, which is that all poor kids aren’t similarly situated. Asian kids raised in the bottom 20% of the income scale have a 25% chance of ending up in the top 20% as adults. For white kids it’s only 11%. Socioeconomic status is a factor but it’s not dispositive or insurmountable.

As to grades—you think it’s easier for a bright but poor kid to do their homework in time for 12 years than to study for one test? As to “personal stories”—that’s just a vector for manipulation by the whites people who run the admissions system. It’s remarkable to me to read anecdotes from admissions counselors, who say stuff like that they are looking for weird and non-conforming kids: https://www.cnbc.com/2021/10/22/former-stanford-admissions-o.... Talk about cultural loading!

Re:Harvard won’t require SAT or ACT through 2026 as test-opt... by hooande on Saturday December 18, 2021 @03:44PM (#29608350)
Even if you remove personal merit from the idea of college admissions, which most people do not, then you've still got a system that's selecting for the cultural knowledge and position of parents instead of the benefit received from educating a particular person. This seems to be working well enough so far, but it isn't optimal.

I never said that someone's income quantile was dispositive. If my parents never took the SAT and have no idea what it is, I'm at a huge disadvantage to do well on the test by any measure. Regardless of their income. Again, the SAT isn't testing for academic aptitude but for the cultural knowledge of parents and peers.

As a wealthy parent I know exactly how to throw money at prepping for one test: hire expensive tutors and purchase practice tests. Gaming years of GPA or coming up with a compelling story is more complicated and difficult to solve with the application of financial resources.

A system with vague and subjective criteria is subject to bias, for sure. They are also more difficult to manipulate directly with wealth (other than bribes). We have to decide what our priorities are there as a society.